S/O The non drivers in Lakewood need help.

creditcards

Fri, Mar 23 2018, 12:46 pm

amother wrote:

Because people don’t like being other people’s “shabbos g-y”

I'm chasidish and don't drive because my Rebbe doesn't allow me to. What does that have to do with you being my Shabbos g-y.

I grew up in Boro Park and I carried with the eiruv. As a teenager my mother's litvish friends used to ask me all the time to wheel their carriages for them because they need t I go to a simcha and can't leave their babies....
I used to wheel around people carriages with pleasure happy that I can help. Never did I say I don't want to be your Shabbos g-y.
Now I have a family and my own responsibilities and can't go around wheeling carriages from people. So this chesed is too hard for me now.

If you can't drive other people. That's ok. But it's not ok to bash. I never bashed people who don't use the eiruv yet wanted me to carry for them.

amother

Amber

Fri, Mar 23 2018, 1:04 pm

Ppl are a complex species especially in the huge diversity and range of emotions presented. In each sect there are yet more subdivisions of style and preferences. With that in mind it is difficult to say "be tolerant' or 'this is wrong' and expect all of humanity to be on board with those views or feelings. Our job on this earth is to be a better person by looking inward and working hard-- NOT by putting onto others your opinions or experiences

amother

Khaki

Fri, Mar 23 2018, 1:16 pm

creditcards wrote:

Does your Rebbe not allow you to do something just because he wants to exercise some control over you, or does he not allow you to do something because he either believes its improper or wrong to do it? If its the former, then you need a new Rebbe. If it's the latter, then you are asking people to do something that you (and your Rebbe) believe is not a proper or appropriate thing to do.

So in that case, if you are asking people to do something that you believe is not proper or appropriate as it relates to Judaism, aren't you asking them to be your shabbos g*y in some sense of the word?

leah233

Fri, Mar 23 2018, 1:18 pm

creditcards wrote:

I made this same point on that thread but most Litvish (Yeshivsh) people I know would not ask someone Jewish to push a carriage for them in a Brooklyn eruv.

If you hold something may not be done then it is not correct to ask others to do so.

If you don't do something as a minhag or chumra then it isn't an issue to ask someone who doesn't have that minhag or chumra to do it for you

Last edited by leah233 on Fri, Mar 23 2018, 1:43 pm; edited 2 times in total

amother

Chartreuse

Fri, Mar 23 2018, 1:23 pm

creditcards wrote:

My rav holds that I can't carry for someone who doesn't carry on shabbos. Because they shouldn't ask me to do something they consider mechalel shabbos.

amother

Khaki

Fri, Mar 23 2018, 1:26 pm

leah233 wrote:

I made this same point on that thread but most Litvish (Yeshivsh) people I know would not ask someone Jewish to push a carriage for them in a Brooklyn eruv.

If you hold something may not be done then it is not correct not to ask others to do so.

If you don't do something as a minhag or chumra then it isn't an issue to ask someone who doesn't have that minhag or chumra to do so for you

If someone believes (or has been told by their Rebbe) that carrying within an eiruv is not allowed and desecrates the Shabbos, how can you ask another Yid to carry for you? Aren't you indirectly being the one that's initiating the carrying? If you believe that carrying is in violation of Shabbos, then you should try to limit the desecration of shabbos, not ask someone else to do it for you.

The same applies for minhag and chumrahs, if you are the one initiating the act, then how are you not indirectly responsible for the action?

crust

Fri, Mar 23 2018, 1:32 pm

Yes the responses on that thread were overdramatic; "op is guilting us in" Scratching Head

Op only asked if someone CAN do it. She didn't say 'you cant do it? Hey! you must be lazy selfish slob!'

Creditcards I understand that as someone that lives in Lakewood you are pained after the not so welcoming virtual kablas ponim that you got there.

However, pain is what causes us to evolve.
Instead of dwelling over yes being shabbos [non jew] or not, how about doing something constructive with the pain?

Perhaps its time to form an organization in Lakewood like chesed BP and Willi.

I bet you can pull it off iyh.

leah233

Fri, Mar 23 2018, 1:35 pm

amother wrote:

The difference between asking some one to do something forbidden and asking some one to do something that is a minhag or chumra is that you hold no one may do the former whereas you are choosing not to do the latter as a personal minhag or chumra.

No pun intended but the halachos of Amira L'Akum don't apply to chumros.

amother

Khaki

Fri, Mar 23 2018, 1:42 pm

leah233 wrote:

The difference between asking some one to do something forbidden and something that is a minhag or chumra is that you hold no one may do the former whereas you are choosing not to do the latter as a personal minhag or chumra.

No pun intended but the halachos of Amira L'Akum don't apply to chumros.

Are you choosing to do a minhag/chumrah for the fun of it, or do you believe that it has some deeper meaning to it and elevates your spirituality? If it's the former, then your statement is true. If it's the latter, you're placing your spirituality above the other persons.

And again, if you're the one initiating the act, the responsibility of it leads back to you too. Just because you're not the one actually carrying it out, does not absolve you from it. The act is only being performed just because YOU requested it, not for any other reason. If someone orders a hit, is he absolved from the crime because he hired someone to do it?

creditcards

Fri, Mar 23 2018, 1:44 pm

They obviously don't believe it's chilul Shabbos to use the eiruv in BP. Or else they wouldn't ask me to carry. According to me it's not chilul Shabbos and they have some reason they can't carry. Maybe they don't want to cause machlokes...so if they ask me and tell me they can't do it. I look at it as a chesed and gladly do it if I have the time and energy. Driving should be looked at the same way. Non judgemental. If you can help great. If not. Mind you're own business.

keym

Fri, Mar 23 2018, 1:45 pm

As I said in the other thread. For me the primary issue in giving rides is the cost and the time investment.
But im not chassidishe at all, all my community drives.and there is no emotional thing.
But I have a chassidishe neighbor who sends to one of the chassidishe schools. She drives. And her daughter is teased by classmates for being more "modern" yet have no problem begging for rides during production season. To the point that my neighbor does carpool for girls whose mothers drive.
Its a tremendous blow when the vehicle you use to do chessed for others (pun intended) is used to tease or otherwise look down on your kids.
I know everyone will argue that they dont, but this is my neighbors reality.

amother

Sapphire

Fri, Mar 23 2018, 1:51 pm

creditcards- I wouldn't feel comfortable having someone else carry something for me. If I think it's wrong to carry in that neighborhood then I should live like I think it's wrong. I grew up in a neighborhood where the friends I saw on shabbos held from the eiruv but I didn't. So yes I've been on that side. I've also been in a neighborhood where most do and some don't. I wouldn't feel comfortable carrying for someone who doesn't. If you feel that it's wrong then live like that, don't use other people to carry for you!

Basically I think people who find the concept offensive do find it offensive both ways.

leah233

Fri, Mar 23 2018, 1:53 pm

amother wrote:

If the person being asked does it anyway and I don't think it is forbidden how am I placing my spirituality above hers?

As an aside I don't think all chumros are done because of some deeper meaning that elevates my spirituality. If there is a question in Halacha how to do something or if something may or not be done people are machmir because they want to go according to all opinions.

amother

Khaki

Fri, Mar 23 2018, 2:13 pm

leah233 wrote:

If it's something that's being done anyways, then it may not matter. But if you're asking her to push your carriage for you, then it does matter and you are equally responsible for the act. So in essence, you're carrying too.

I just don't get the concept of what you gain by asking someone to do something that you either hold against or on being machmir on. If something is being done on your account or because you requested it, what makes you think you have had no hand in it?

Chayalle

Fri, Mar 23 2018, 3:01 pm

amother wrote:

I’m litvish and would never ask someone to use the Brooklyn eiruv on shabbos for me. (Neither would my or dh’s family) We hold that it's assur to use it, so asking you to do it would be wrong.

In fact, when my sister's SIL got married and had Shabbos Sheva Brachos in Brooklyn, my sis left her then-two-year-old with me for Shabbos, because she would not be able to take him from their hosts to the hall, and asking someone to carry for her was not an option.

I think that if you think it's wrong for me to drive, don't ask me for a ride. But if you just don't drive as a personal Chumrah, that's different.

crust

Fri, Mar 23 2018, 3:05 pm

Chayalle wrote:

This.
Thanks for your voice of reason.

Chayalle

Fri, Mar 23 2018, 3:07 pm

creditcards wrote:

I don't know who their Rav is....but (without sounding personally judgemental, please don't take it that way) I do believe it's assur to carry in Brooklyn on Shabbos. I don't know why they ask you to carry, but in my family we would not do that. My Rav would not allow it.

I asked a Rav here in Lakewood, and he said that in Brooklyn we hold the Eiruv isn't Kosher, and we can't use it. In Monsey, we hold the Eiruv is Kosher but some don't use it for other reasons...so we can use it or ask someone else to use it for us.

naturalmom5

Fri, Mar 23 2018, 3:25 pm

"Because people don’t like being other people’s “shabbos g-y”

The only problem with this is, anyone I have ever drove as a chesed or get paid, acts very self-righteous and speaks to me like I'm her cleaning lady.

Even by a kiddush these same people I did favors exhibited body language like its beneath them to talk to me socially.

CCard you may be an exception to the rule