Help me help my daughter! (Hashkafa)

amother

Olive

Thu, Apr 05 2018, 9:04 am

Looking for recommendations on a book that can help my daughter.
She has been asking questions regarding men vs women in the Torah, why women are blamed for the Cheit of the Eitz Hadaas, why women are subservient to men.... While I am confident and do not have a waiver of faith in this area I've tried to talk to her and explain my point of view and how I feel that women are respected and held up very high in the Jewish religion. When shementions about other sects of Judaism I am able to answer that's how they do things, but that's not the life that I chose, and I can t explain what they choose to do. But I would really like a well-known book that discusses women in Judaism, that will give her the proper perspective that women are not subservient, that women are well respected and preferably has examples from the Torah proving this.
any ideas or recommendations? She is at a very delicate age of 13 and I'm afraid to mess this up... Don't want her to turn away because of this Chas V'Shalom.
Thank you!

octopus

Thu, Apr 05 2018, 12:46 pm

She can read all different kinds of things but truthfully what does she see in the home? Does your husband only learn with the boys? I grew up with my dad learning with both the boys and girls. I wasn't really so interested at the time, but if I would have expressed interest, it would've continued. You can try to sell her all these beautiful hashkafic point of views , but if you really live a life where women are treated like second class citizens, you are talking from two different sides of your mouth.

gnomey

Thu, Apr 05 2018, 12:51 pm

I don't have a book recommendation, but in terms of how to talk to your daughter, I might be able to help. When I was a teenager it really bothered me to get responses like what you said (not saying it's a bad response, just that it rubbed me the wrong way). When people would deny that there was sexism in orthodoxy, it drove me nuts. Or tried to make it seem like the ways that women are not treated equally are because of how they are actually held higher, or because of how men are less trusted, etc. I did not buy that interpretation and I still feel skeptical of it.

My daughter is still too young to be curious about these things but I think I would tell her that a lot of the traditions and laws we follow are from a different time when women WERE expected to be subservient. That women are not treated equally in Torah times, and that's one of the reasons I chose her name (Noa) as she was a woman who fought for her right to be treated fairly at a time when women were not even allowed to inherit property. That women should continue to stand up for what they believe in and fight for what they want. Traditions evolve, and that is a good reason to remain within the faith, because it's easier to effect change from the inside than the outside.

amother

Olive

Thu, Apr 05 2018, 1:00 pm

octopus wrote:

There are no boys in the family, and my husband treats me with the utmost respect. My brothers do as well.
This question followed a Chol HaMoed trip we went on where there were many Chasidim (no I'm not at all making any statements about Chasidim or getting into that conversation...) where she may have picked up on this.
My husband is the one who learns with her, and does all judaic studies homework with her

amother

Olive

Thu, Apr 05 2018, 1:09 pm

gnomey wrote:

While I agree with you, and your ideas, she is still too immature to process that idea correctly.

naturalmom5

Thu, Apr 05 2018, 1:36 pm

Hindy613 wrote:

To be a Jewish Woman, Lisa Aiken. all women who have those questions should read this book too.

I read this book.While she makes some valid points, she sounds like a total apologist for the status quo. Lets face it, it isnt the Torah that makes women second class citizens. Its the frum culture that subjugates women. For example, the shidduch system cheapens girls. Its kneged human nature. Hashem made it so that its for the man to pursue the woman. In many cultures he has to prove to her family that he can provide for her and protect her. Thus, if he doesnt really want her he wont put himself through what can be a very strenuous ordeal. She's not easily aquired. He has to earn her familys permission to marry her. Thus, when he finally does aquire her, he values her dearly. Now, compare that to some buchur who has girls lined up and waiting for him. If he's a "top buchur" he gets all kinds of promises of support. The shver can further entice him by promising a posh home, a brand new leased car, etc. to take this daughter off his hands. Lehavdil, just as a rock star has no respect for the groupies that line up for his favor, this buchur doesn't really value this girl who was one of many vying for his consideration. Basic male nature. Why do we do this to our daughters? This also emaculates the young men. By pursuing and winning the young woman, he confirms his manhood. Providing for her and their children further confirms his manhood. This is how Hashem made the world. This is just one of many examples.
Your daughter is a very perceptive young lady for whom stock answers may not suffice.

daagahminayin

Thu, Apr 05 2018, 1:47 pm

amother wrote:

While I agree with you, and your ideas, she is still too immature to process that idea correctly.

Why not? Gnomey explained the approach very clearly, and if your daughter is old enough to be asking these questions she should be old enough to understand this kind of answer, especially if it’s something you repeat and stick with each time she asks.

When she’s older, Jewish Women in Time and Torah by Rabbi Eliezer Berkowitz would be good for fleshing out this approach.

amother

Gray

Thu, Apr 05 2018, 1:52 pm

gnomey wrote:

It sounds as if you're the one planting these ideas in her head in a very subtle way.
Listen to what you wrote about naming your daughter Noa, a woman who as you see it "fought for her rights". That's not the way the Torah presents her story. She and her sisters had a problem. They approached the leader of their generation. The answer they got provided for them fairly and most importantly, according to the word of Hashem. There were certain limitations placed on them but Tzelaphchad's daughters accepted the answer they got and acted accordingly.
I don't think you should be offering your daughter books to read or answers of any sort until you yourself feel comfortable with your role as a woman. Maybe you'd like to do some reading on your own first. When you and your husband are both comfortable with your lives as servants of Hashem your daughter will pick up your feelings and attitudes. Having her read books is a nice idea, but there's nothing like seeing your own parents' values reflected in the Jewish home you live in.

gnomey

Thu, Apr 05 2018, 2:05 pm

I think you mixed me up with someone else. My only daughter is an infant and I haven't given her any books on this subject, nor suggested any books to the OP. I feel very comfortable with my role as a woman, and also with my interpretation of the Torah story from which my daughter's name derives. I am also not the first person (including my Rav who gave a beautiful sermon about it at my daughter's naming) to interpret this story as depicting women being proactive to generate a positive change for more rights and fairer treatment, and I think one would have to try really hard to NOT see that message in Noa's story.

amother wrote:

Maybe you'd like to do some reading on your own first.

This is an incredibly rude thing to say.

tichellady

Thu, Apr 05 2018, 2:08 pm

I think you can explain 1. That you can’t speak for sects or Judaism that you are not a part of, and she doesn’t need to worry about those sects 2. That Torah values intersect with societal values and flawed humans trying to live a Torah life but not doing a perfect job. We can look at the Torah for our values but that doesn’t mean our community is perfect ( in many areas). Both our jewish society and the secular greater society that we live in have lots of room for improvement in terms of how women are treated 3. I would listen to what she has to say and what she has observed and what she thinks about it all. It’s ok if she notices that our community is flawed, because it is. We are human and have lots of room for improvement

amother

Olive

Thu, Apr 05 2018, 2:25 pm

gnomey wrote:

You took the words right out of my mouth!

And if I didn't know my daughter personally, I'd answer with the same exact response. It's hard to explain but she just does not have the maturity to understand the specifics of that answer. She will hang on the parts that she disagrees with and hammer away disregarding the rest of it. I felt a book recommendation IN COMBINATION with my answers, in combination with the way we live our lives would help her.

amother

Olive

Thu, Apr 05 2018, 2:34 pm

tichellady wrote:

I definitely would not /could not speak for other sects of Judaism and that's what I told her. Everyone has their own reasons for doing what they do and I can't explain it.
Totally agree with you on point 2!, will mention that as well.
What's weird is that she can't pinpoint specific reasons for her saying this. I kept asking her and she didn't want to /couldn't say

amother

Olive

Thu, Apr 05 2018, 2:37 pm

amother wrote:

Gnomey is not the op, I am, and I'm very comfortable with being a servant of Hashem, 😊 that doesn't mean I have all the answers to help her. For me, I have a faith and commitment that's hard to put into words