Help me help my daughter! (Hashkafa)

gnomey

Thu, Apr 05 2018, 11:46 am

amother wrote:

And if I didn't know my daughter personally, I'd answer with the same exact response.

That's fair enough! It's clear that you are a devoted mother and that your daughter is bright and inquisitive. I have tons of respect for you trying to get input to help her. Don't listen to anyone trying to put you down. I hope you find what you're looking for, come back and update if you find a book that helps. I may need it in about 12 years!

Simple1

Thu, Apr 05 2018, 12:48 pm

I've had these questions for a long time. I finally settled with the fact that much of it comes from a time where woman were treated like that and Judaism was actually protective of women if that era. And since we're in galus we can't change/adjust the Torah.

If we are happy with our lives on a practical level, that's the main thing.

What doesn't add up is that you said your dd had questions from seeing chassidim in a park. I'm not chassidish and we always see chassidim on chol hamoed trips. This never even came close to triggering questions about the women's role.

fmt4

Sat, Apr 07 2018, 7:27 pm

gnomey wrote:

I don't have a book recommendation, but in terms of how to talk to your daughter, I might be able to help. When I was a teenager it really bothered me to get responses like what you said (not saying it's a bad response, just that it rubbed me the wrong way). When people would deny that there was sexism in orthodoxy, it drove me nuts. Or tried to make it seem like the ways that women are not treated equally are because of how they are actually held higher, or because of how men are less trusted, etc. I did not buy that interpretation and I still feel skeptical of it.

My daughter is still too young to be curious about these things but I think I would tell her that a lot of the traditions and laws we follow are from a different time when women WERE expected to be subservient. That women are not treated equally in Torah times, and that's one of the reasons I chose her name (Noa) as she was a woman who fought for her right to be treated fairly at a time when women were not even allowed to inherit property. That women should continue to stand up for what they believe in and fight for what they want. Traditions evolve, and that is a good reason to remain within the faith, because it's easier to effect change from the inside than the outside.

This is the only response in my opinion. It’s pointless and intellectually disingenuous to try and justify the way that women in the Torah were treated back then. It only serves to further confuse and distance them further.

Mommyg8

Sat, Apr 07 2018, 9:50 pm

amother wrote:

Honestly, there is no answer. Judaism is patriarchal.

I'm wondering why you say that Judaism is patriarchal, what do you base this on?

While only a man can be a Rav, there is so much more to Judaism than being a Rav or a poseik, at least I think so. There is so much room for women to make their mark in a different way...

We have many excellent female role models in the Torah - the Imahos, Yocheved and Miriam, Rus and N'omi, Devorah Hanoviah, Chana... just to mention a few.

I think that much of the reason that women were treated differently was because of the culture of the world around us... as the culture around us changes, the women's roles are changing as well. At least in my neck of the woods.

momnaturally

Sat, Apr 07 2018, 10:29 pm

Unless your daughter is unusually intellectual, 13 is quite young for deep philosophical discussions.
I would focus more on where the questions are stemming from and why it bothers her ?
There are lots of difficult questions in the world about a lot of things but that doesn't mean it bothers most people to know the answer to them.
If she has a specific question I would ask her why that bothers her ?

Just to illustrate.

Let's say a woman is happily married.
The fact that "technically" her husband can marry a second wife will likely not bother her.
Why ? Because he loves her and doesn't want to. So the question becomes theoretical. So for a theoretical question there is a very simple answer. Hashem gave the Torah and there is clearly things that he wants to have certain ways even if we don't have the explanations. There is nothing wrong to search for explanations but only after a basic acceptance of the facts and that Torah is G-D given. We don't look for answers as a means to justify it rather to come to a better understanding of what we already accept is truth.

This same question posed by a woman with a cheating husband... no explanation in the world will help you justify it or will be satisfactory to her...

My point is your main focus is not to address every question she has rather find out what prompted the questions. Perhaps she doesn't understand the role of a Jewish woman and what the goals and means of accomplishment are for a woman in Judaism. If she is happy being Jewish and fullfilled from Judaism the philosophical questions will remain just that purely philosophical.

mandksima

Sat, Apr 07 2018, 10:42 pm

I read a wonderful book last year that explains the whole reason very clearly why women have had the roles they have had since Chava's sin and how it is slowly changing and will be totally rectified and reversed when Moshiach comes. It was fascinating to me but I'm not sure how a young girl will relate to it. Perhaps read it first and talk about it with her.

The Moon's Lost Light

It really should be required reading for all women in this generation! I recommend it to everyone!

Mommyg8

Sat, Apr 07 2018, 10:45 pm

mandksima wrote:

Thanks for the link, but at close to 800 dollars I think I'll pass, for now!

I think that Rabbi Dovid Cohen wrote something similar, though.

Seas

Sat, Apr 07 2018, 11:17 pm

naturalmom5 wrote:

I read this book.While she makes some valid points, she sounds like a total apologist for the status quo. Lets face it, it isnt the Torah that makes women second class citizens. Its the frum culture that subjugates women. For example, the shidduch system cheapens girls. Its kneged human nature. Hashem made it so that its for the man to pursue the woman. In many cultures he has to prove to her family that he can provide for her and protect her. Thus, if he doesnt really want her he wont put himself through what can be a very strenuous ordeal. She's not easily aquired. He has to earn her familys permission to marry her. Thus, when he finally does aquire her, he values her dearly. Now, compare that to some buchur who has girls lined up and waiting for him. If he's a "top buchur" he gets all kinds of promises of support. The shver can further entice him by promising a posh home, a brand new leased car, etc. to take this daughter off his hands. Lehavdil, just as a rock star has no respect for the groupies that line up for his favor, this buchur doesn't really value this girl who was one of many vying for his consideration. Basic male nature. Why do we do this to our daughters? This also emaculates the young men. By pursuing and winning the young woman, he confirms his manhood. Providing for her and their children further confirms his manhood. This is how Hashem made the world. This is just one of many examples.
Your daughter is a very perceptive young lady for whom stock answers may not suffice.

You do realize that in the chassidish world it's generally the other way around. There, a good girl is a precious commodity and it's the boys who are interchangeably.

Fox

Sun, Apr 08 2018, 1:35 am

Honestly, I don't think this is a hashkafa problem. I think this is a cultural problem. Most of us live in societies where the surrounding culture considers traditionally "masculine" attributes and interests to be more praiseworthy than traditionally "feminine" attributes and interests. As a result, it's difficult for many of us to identify value in anything associated with the feminine.

Ask your DD to think about the characteristics and tasks historically associated with masculinity and femininity. Which ones does she think are more impressive? Which ones does she hear praised by her teachers and peers? Can she recall where she got her ideas of which characteristics and tasks are "better"?

Or perhaps ask your DD to imagine a hypothetical young woman discussing her ambitions: what kind of feedback would such a young woman receive for saying, "My goal is to be a business executive" versus "My goal is to be a mother"? Would one response make your DD like the young woman more or less? Would she have a more or less favorable opinion of the young woman based on either response? What does she think her friends, classmates, or teachers might say to a young woman making either response?

It never fails to sadden me that people who wish to turn a razor-sharp eye to dissecting the intricacies of the Torah are so often blind to the cultural influences under which they go about their day-to-day lives. We happen to live in a time where both masculinity and femininity are routinely devalued and mocked. Yes, if your only frame of reference is the set of values and priorities popularly held by people in 2018, you will likely find much in the Torah about which to complain.

Learning how to take a step back and apply a critical eye to one's surroundings and the popular assumptions of one's era is a skill that will benefit your daughter in many ways in years to come -- and not just with regard to this specific issue.

cheeseaddict

Sun, Apr 08 2018, 3:42 am

After Adam and Chava ate from the etz hadaas, they were punished with curses (really a new form of reality as opposed to idyllic gan eden), whereby they became mortal, man had to work for his sustenance, women had painful childbirth and also "vehu yimshol bach" - man will be ruling over women until the coming of Moshiach, ie: rectification of this original aveira.

That's all it is.
An unfortunate truth, yes. But not due to misogyny on the part of the male rabbis, or because earlier generations treated women as chattel... etc.

imasoftov

Sun, Apr 08 2018, 4:07 am

cheeseaddict wrote:

Not all men earn their living by the sweat of their brow anymore ...

mandksima

Sun, Apr 08 2018, 4:54 am

cheeseaddict wrote:

That's the premise of the book I mentioned but it's written to really explain woman's role in the beginning, how it changed, how we're getting closer and how it will be reinstated in the future.