S/o why put more emphasis on bar than bat mitzvahs?

boysrus

Fri, Apr 20 2018, 11:00 am

I think my mind is offically blown... $30,000 on a barmitzvah celebration?! Wow, I wouldnt even know how to spend that much money!

I have made 4 barmitzvahs BH, expenses were similar for each one:

Tefilin - approx 1200 (thats the only place where Id be happy to spend a little more if I had more cash available)
Catered seudah with a one piece band for classmates, rebbeim and family = approx 1700

and Kiddush = approx 600

Approximate total: $3500

I couldnt even figure out how to spend much more. Maybe another 1000 on more mehudar tefilin , maybe an upgraded kiddush for another 500, maybe invite another 20 people to the catered seudah = 500 approx. But that wouldnt take us over $5500.

CRAZY...

flowerpower

Fri, Apr 20 2018, 11:01 am

amother wrote:

Yes, each gender has their own advantages in their daily routines of life. But I'm not sure how that equates with throwing a large celebration when one child reaches a milestone, and doing a little something for another child when she reaches the same milestone.

They're not interested in having a lavish party with many adults that they don't even know too well. Having an intimate party with some friends and family is far more enjoyable to them. I remember how much I enjoyed my bas mitzvah party that was in my dining room. I don't remember enjoying or being jealous of my brothers bar mitzvah that were in a hall at all. I made a bar mitzvah recently and my girls were more excited than my son. The whole school heard about it. The teachers even mentioned it at pta a few weeks later😛

amother

Purple

Fri, Apr 20 2018, 11:10 am

flowerpower wrote:

Each to their own, but you and your children's preferences don't necessarily carry over to the rest of the society. Additionally, I also wonder how much of this attitude is actually societal conditioning.

chicco

Fri, Apr 20 2018, 11:30 am

I am all for making girls feel good and not as second class citizens, which I honestly don't believe we are, despite the efforts of some to treat us that way. That being said, I honestly think it's a bit absurd to celebrate a bar and bas mitzvah the same way. That is not to say I encourage over the top celebrations in either case, but as I understand it, a boy coming of age, ie. At a bar mitzvah- we are celebrating that he has reached the point for which he was created- to perform mitzvos. That is the general tachlis of all men. Obviously, each one has his individual tachlis, but in a general sense, they were created to perform mitzvos, and we are celebrating his ability to do so now in a real way. A woman has a different role in the world, which regardless of how many tomatoes are thrown at me for saying this, is much more centered around the home. Obviously a woman is capable of "more" than homemaking, but I do believe (again ducking for tomatoes) that a woman's role in the world in much more focused on creating and sustaining a home in both the physical and spiritual aspects. (A role that I find to be much more powerful than a man's). In fact, the mitzvos that are specifically for woman mostly come into play in the home. (Obviously candles and challah can be done before marriage, but they are again, a huge part of establishing and sustaining the home). I think that's why weddings are much more centered around the kallah. We are celebrating that she got to the stage to be able to fulfill her role as a woman. Again, that's not to say that a woman who does not get married has no purpose, but I do think she is missing out on a big part of what woman are created to do.

Equality shouldn't mean the same. It should mean respect and appreciation for what is real. Men and women are not the same. Both are important, and instead of giving them the "same", they should be given the "same" level of respect as G-d saw fit to bring both into the world with their own strengths, weaknesses, and roles.

flowerpower

Fri, Apr 20 2018, 11:35 am

chicco wrote:

Well said!!!!!!

oakandfig19

Fri, Apr 20 2018, 11:38 am

flowerpower wrote:

Honestly, I don't raise my kids with the new mentality that men and women are equal. They are both different and have different advantages and qualities. They are both special in their own ways.
Now regarding simchas- bar mitzvahs in my circles can range from $1200 up to $30,000. Everyone does as they please. Many make in a takana hall, in a shul, in their house, in a regular hall.... whatever floats their boat. Boys have an official bar mitzvah is something that is celebrated with a minyan. By us it's a big deal- they get a whole new wardrobe- suits, hats, wool tzitis, white shirts, tefillin... they now have to daven with a minyan, bentch mezinim....
A girl is now considered an adult so many people make a challah party with the girl takes challah for the first time.. Many schools frown upon making a big Bas Mitzvah( due to peer pressure) so they make one big party in school for the whole class or grade. I am happy about it because making Bar Mitzvahs is enough of a pressure for me( nice dresses for everyone....) so at least by the girls I can plan something fun and spiritual at the same time.

You don't raise your kids as equal?
definition of equal: "being the same in quantity, size, degree, or value."

wouldn't you agree that your kids all have the same value? It's not such a foreign concept that all Jews have value. I don't see why you see this as an infiltration from secular society.

If you're trying to say that you don't raise your kids as the same, I get that. But that's not what equal means.

amother

Purple

Fri, Apr 20 2018, 11:39 am

chicco wrote:

Two points:

- The Bar Mitzvah celebration is primarily celebrating the fact that the child has reached the age of adulthood, where he is required and obligated in the mitzvahs. It is not a celebration of tachlis, success or any other measure. If that were to be true, (as another poster has suggested), we would be celebrating that at a different stage in life, where a level of success and completion can be measured.

All these rationales, that it's about tachlis, about mitzvahs, etc. are just conditioning methods employed by our society to 'excuse' the one-sided celebrations. The stage of Bar/Bas mitzvah is nothing more than a 'coming of age' ceremony.

- Besides for the Chassidish community, I don't see where weddings are more centered around women. A wedding is a joint celebration of both a Chosson and Kallah.

Ema of 5

Fri, Apr 20 2018, 11:44 am

oakandfig19 wrote:

My kids are not equal. They all have their own strengths and weaknesses, and they each have their own way of learning and growing. Each person’s value is different, based on heir own strengths and weaknesses. A brainiacs value is not the same as someone who struggles to grasp a concept when it comes to a trivia contest. They are both valuable, but their values fast in different places. This is the concept of Chanoch l’na’ar al pi darko- each child is different, and needs to be treated and educated as such.

amother

Plum

Fri, Apr 20 2018, 11:45 am

amother wrote:

While I certainly believe men and women are different and have different roles for serving Hashem and that doesn't make one better or more special than the other, that argument only holds up if you truly highlight the importance of each role. Sorry, but if you spend thousands of dollars on celebrations for boys lasting a whole weekend and girls celebrate by baking challah with their sisters and cousins on a Sunday, that just shows that the concept of "different roles but women aren't second class" is apologetic BS. You can talk till you're blue in the face about binah yeseirah and how Hashem commended Avraham to listen to his wife, and women are actually on a higher spiritual level and that's why they don't need as many mitzvos- but if there's such a massive disparity in how things are presented, it sends a message that is not at all consistent with those teachings. I don't believe women are second class citizens according to Torah Judaism, but certain social practices sure as heck make it look like it.

OP here. this exactly!

chicco

Fri, Apr 20 2018, 11:48 am

amother wrote:

I don't see it that way at all. Again, I mean tachlis as the role for which one was created, which I believe for men in general is performing mitzvos. I think it's ridiculous to celebrate bar mitzvahs as a success of any kind on the boy's behalf- he hasn't done anything yet.

I have never seen that a wedding is centered around a chosson as much as a kallah. Yes, I do agree that the chosson has a chaylek in the party, and there is a celebration that the two of them are starting out to hopefully build their Bayis b'yisrael, but again, I think that has much more to do with the kallah than the chosson. The celebration itself I think is much more for the girl's sake than the boy's.

But respectfully, that's just my opinion and sense of the situation.

amother

Purple

Fri, Apr 20 2018, 11:49 am

eema of 3 wrote:

I disagree. Each person's value is not different, but perhaps their strengths, weakness, characters and personalities are. I value each person the same, regardless of their personal strengths and weaknesses.

SixOfWands

Fri, Apr 20 2018, 11:49 am

eema of 3 wrote:

The question isn't who does better at a trivia contest, or who you would ask to fix a broken lamp. The question is their perceived value to YOU.

Would you make an elaborate bar mitzvah party for your son who excels at limudei kodesh, and have your son who struggles make kiddush at home Friday night, to demonstrate what each one is better at?

amother

Plum

Fri, Apr 20 2018, 11:55 am

OP here. So who's joining me in making things more equal. I disagree with spending a lot on boys bar mitzvahs. I think they should be more toned down and that whatever you spend on your son, you should spend approximately the same on your daughter. Obviously boys and girls are different with different halachic obligations but to spend more on a bar mitzvah just because he is a boy- what message are you sending your daughter. I like the idea of just having a celebration for bar mitzvah on shabbos in shul, and for your daughter something that is equivalent.

amother

Jetblack

Fri, Apr 20 2018, 11:56 am

I am planning my oldest's bat mitzvah now.

I grew up non-Orthodox in the NYC area and the parties are blowouts--$30K would be nothing nowadays. I think it's a waste of money.

Now, I'm modern and my shul does do something to mark bnot mitzvah, but my plan is this, and I will also follow it for sons: I will sponsor a Shabbat kiddush, then after Shabbat she will have a party at home. The big celebration for her will be that I will take her to Israel.

Of course, this won't work for everyone. But I don't like the big blowout celebrations, and it's hard for me to argue that the huge parties are really deserved more by boys. It's one thing for me to say, I have to spend so much on your brothers for tefillin and not you. But the parties feel like they go way beyond that.

amother

Purple

Fri, Apr 20 2018, 11:58 am

chicco wrote:

So then you agree that when a girl reaches 12 and a boy reaches 13, they both have reached their age, the milestone, where they become self-responsible to begin fulfilling their individual tachlis. And that's what the Bar / Mitzvah celebration is all about. It's celebrating the end of childhood / beginning of adulthood. (And you misunderstood my comment about success.)

Perhaps the one sided view of the wedding is because you are on the female side. I personally don't see the celebration being any less on the men's side or the excitement being any less. If anything, many times it appears the level of excitement is quite higher on the other side of the mechitzah. If you're referring to buying clothing and stocking the apartment with necessities, yes, that is centered around the woman.

Ema of 5

Fri, Apr 20 2018, 11:59 am

SixOfWands wrote:

You missed my point. Someone said bar mitzvas are bigger because boys have more mitzvos. That sparked a conversation about value and equality. I have said that celebration of bar and bas mitzva is NOT about value, but about reaching a milestone. Everyone reaches that milestone, both boys and girls. It makes me very sad that they are celebrated differently.

Ema of 5

Fri, Apr 20 2018, 12:02 pm

amother wrote:

Me!! I do not plan to go all out or go into debt for either Simcha.

amother

Purple

Fri, Apr 20 2018, 12:03 pm

eema of 3 wrote:

I don't think she missed your point, because of the terminology you used. You said you place different values on different kids because of their capabilities. Perhaps you were trying to point out the opposite, but your post came across as some people are valued more or less, depending on their capabilities.

Were you trying to point out that different kids have different capabilities, but all should have equal value in our eyes?

Ema of 5

Fri, Apr 20 2018, 12:09 pm

amother wrote:

What I said was that in different situations different people have different values. My point is that they are NOT equal, each person, each child, has their own tool set which makes them unique. To raise all of our children as equals would be a disservice to them. To say that boys and girls, men and women are equal would not be true. All are valuable, all have their own strengths and weaknesses. To not recognize that is unfair. Different doesn’t mean lesser though. So just because males and females have different obligations within Judaism, that does not mean that one should be celebrated more than the other. It doesn’t mean one is more or less valuable, it means each person is valuable in a different way, in heir own unique way.