S/o why put more emphasis on bar than bat mitzvahs?

Mommyg8

Sun, Apr 22 2018, 12:46 pm

cream+sugar wrote:

Yes, spending 30k on a party is extremely tzniusdik. It's only a problem when a girl wants to celebrate being obligated in mitzvos by demonstrating her learning and being a member of her community (rather than just being shoved into the kitchen and told to keep quiet). Clearly that's the major breach of tznius.

No-one in my cirlces is spending 30K on a party. Let's not get mixed up.

jerusalem90

Sun, Apr 22 2018, 12:52 pm

amother wrote:

As someone already noted, you are citing the exceptions. . .

And -

Esther is lauded for continuing to listen to Mordechai, rather than for taking responsibility and making her own decisions. Additionally, even though Esther wrote the Megillah, a Megillah that was written by a woman is not kosher, and most opinions are that women do not have the same level of obligation as men, so women cannot be motzi men in reading the Megillah.

Devorah’s generation is denigrated for having a woman as a leader, and Devorah is certainly not held up as a role model for girls/women to emulate. In fact for thousands of years - and even today in many (most?) communities, women are discouraged from learning, performing optional, mitzvos, and/or taking on any public and/or decision-making roles.

Women in Judaism are viewed as ancillary to men and encouraged/praised for remaining in the background (e.g. “hinei b’ohel) and taking the supporting role (e.g. “isha ksheira osah ratzon baalah”) etc.

Devorah is not held up as a role model for girls and women to emulate? I've never heard that. Maybe in some communities...

A lot of MEN, even Soloman who was the smartest man, said denigrating things about women. But men said those things, not Gd. And no matter how smart a man is, he has his ego and his biases. Look at Stephen Hawking boycotting Israel.

It all goes back to when Adam and Eve ate the apple and Gd was telling them all the bad things that would happen to them now and he told Eve "he will dominate you". The way I heard it explained was NOT that Gd was telling Adam that he SHOULD dominate Eve, but that he was saying that it would happen, like sickness happens.

Mommyg8

Sun, Apr 22 2018, 12:57 pm

jerusalem90 wrote:

Historically, have Jewish women been treated as "supporting role only"? Yes, but historically women of all cultures have, and they were before the Torah was given. Biblically, have Jewish women been treated as "supporting role only"? No, as the examples I gave show women are an integral part of the stories that Gd chose to include in his book.

The treatment of women as "supporting role only" is not inherent to Judaism, and doesn't come from Gd's word. It literally comes from men who have always held the power well before Torah was given and don't want to give it up.

I agree with you to a certain extent, but the facts are that Hashem created the world that way as well. Men are stronger then women, women are the ones who are weak by pregnancy, nursing, etc. I think that women are given a supporting role, both in real life and in Judaism. Which in no way makes women lesser or less important than men, just different. I know that it sounds like I am spouting one of those "separate but equal" speeches that nobody likes, but I really do feel that way, and I think that realistically, it's true.

Men have many more mitzvos than women, and they are more visible. They wear tefilin (and tzitzis), they have a constant chiyuv of limud torah, and to be honest, men, by nature, are generally more aggressive as well. In other words, their natures are made to suit the role that is given to them.

Women just have a different role. Women are the ones who get pregnant, only women can breastfeed, and generally women are more nurturing as well. They are made differently, and they have different needs, interests, and yes, obligations.

I do think, though, that the RW world has gone too far in pushing women down nowadays. My husband's grandmother's father had a yeshiva, and his grandmother would learn from her father, and knew quite a bit as well - I can just imagine how well that would go over nowadays. I hear from the RW world that women don't really have a role at all, and I just don't think that's true. And it's very harmful. I wish they would stop doing that. Which is completely not related to the bar/bat mitzvah debate. I never even HAD a bat mitzvah party, and I don't regret it at all. Being treated as second class in other ways? Yes.

heidi

Mon, Apr 23 2018, 12:02 am

I'm really not understanding the anger here.
What do men do that women want to? Wear tefillin? Have to daven in a minyan 3 times a day?
I never ever feel like a second class citizen. Davening behind a mechitza keeps me from spending the time sucking in my stomach worrying about how I look and lets me daven. I don't have any desire to learn gemara. If I did, I would go to one of the millions of classes offered, or to a daf yomi shiur. I choose to dress in a tzanua fashion. Not bcz. I am oppressed but bcz. I believe that my body belongs to me (and my husband when I'm in a sharing mood Wink

).
Where is the oppression in my lifestyle?? Where is the second class citizeness??

grace413

Mon, Apr 23 2018, 3:55 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

In all the weddings I have gone to, the Kallah is on the girl's side, and the chassan in on the boys side. With a mechitzah in between. The only time the Kallah is on public display is by the chupah (not by Chassidishe weddings, though) and that is only a short time, and anyway, I think every rule can have some kind of exception, no? The chuppah is a nice exception.

A bar mitzvah, on the other hand, is focused completely on the boy, speeches about the boy and about his yeshiva, parents, or whatever, so I don't see how it would be tzniusdig to have that kind of focus on a girl.

In all the Charedi (not Chassidish)weddings I have attended (I have many Charedi relatives) the kallah goes into the men's section at the reception where she sits next to the chosson while men dance in front of her. Actually, by virtue of being the only woman in the room, I think she's even more on public display.

amother

Khaki

Mon, Apr 23 2018, 4:00 am

grace413 wrote:

Actually, the yeshivish don’t do this anymore. It’s not considered ok, at least at the weddings in Lakewood I’ve attended.

imasoftov

Mon, Apr 23 2018, 5:23 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

Which RW community is this? Never heard of it.

I neither initiate conversations with haredi males nor carry around a copy of the Field Guide to Jerusalem Haredim that would allow me to identify them by their plumage. But I sometimes see a group of boys, all around the same age it seems by size and behavior (I'm not basing this on size alone as some teens might be short), some are wearing checkered shirts, and some are dressed in the same clothes and headcoverings as the adults.

Last edited by imasoftov on Mon, Apr 23 2018, 5:26 am; edited 1 time in total

Aylat

Mon, Apr 23 2018, 5:56 am

imasoftov wrote:

I've seen that too and mostly it's kids in the same class (kita zayin or thereabouts) and some have had their 13th birthdays already, and some are born later in the year and will be turning 13 in the next few months.

Chayalle

Mon, Apr 23 2018, 6:10 am

amother wrote:

Actually, the yeshivish don’t do this anymore. It’s not considered ok, at least at the weddings in Lakewood I’ve attended.

Huh? It's definitely done at the weddings I've attended (my own included).

ETA: I think amother is translating "reception" as Kabalat Panim, which is before the Chuppah. Kallah stays by women, Chassan at men's side, at that time. I was taking Grace's "reception" to mean after the Chuppah - am I wrong? After the Chuppah, I see almost every Kallah will go into the men's section and sit with the Chassan, and they dance in front of her.

Last edited by Chayalle on Mon, Apr 23 2018, 6:13 am; edited 1 time in total

Chayalle

Mon, Apr 23 2018, 6:17 am

amother wrote:

I definitely was not taught Megillas Esther the same way you were. Esther gives very definite instructions to Mordechai - she is the one who calls a 3 day fast - and she is lauded for her proactive role. I have heard of those who laud her as supporting, but it was not the main commentary and way I was taught.

Mommyg8

Mon, Apr 23 2018, 6:18 am

grace413 wrote:

Not at the reception, but later on during the dancing.

Since generally men and women are segregated, especially at weddings, this is one part that is unusual, as previous poster mentioned "keitzad mirakdim" - because there's a real reason (mitzvah).

In all honesty, I think it's much more on display for a girl to give a speech and have people give speeches about her.

Look, if this is not how it's done in your circles, I'm completely fine with it. But this is definitely how it's done in our circles, and that's not changing anytime soon. Nobody I know is really bothered by it (unless they are comparing notes to relatives or friends who DID have a bat mitzvah) - generally if this is the community's norm, nobody realizes that they should be upset.

Personally, I have a long list of things that I would be upset about before this, and this issue doesn't bother me at all (I had a nonexistent bas mitzvah) but that's just me.

amother

Cerulean

Mon, Apr 23 2018, 6:42 am

Chayalle wrote:

“Umamamar Mordechai, Esther osah, ka’asher hoisa b’omnom ito.” Even going to Achashverosh was at Mordechai’s behest. And at the end of the Megillah,it is Mordechai who is lauded (as with all the pesukim read aloud). Esther just disappears . . .

PinkFridge

Mon, Apr 23 2018, 8:22 am

amother wrote:

But after that, Esther is proactive.
And the megillah is called by her name.
Yes, she had a tragic life, but I will unapologetically call her my role model and heroine.

grace413

Mon, Apr 23 2018, 9:35 am

Yes, I meant during the dancing.

Actually I think this has been a very polite and civilized discussion. We can agree to disagree and I would not expect to change anybody's mind but it's interesting to hear what people have to say.

Mommyg8 wrote: