S/O Why is adult FRUM literature awful?

Raisin

Wed, Apr 25 2018, 5:21 am

amother wrote:

Are you all aware of the controversy surrounding Naomi Ragan's books? There's a reason they are so horrifying and similar to non-jewish books.

I agree with you all that most of Ragen's books are not very good, exaggerated, plus iirc she copied whole paragraphs from other authors.

My point is that if you are a frum writer you can write books and have them published by mainstream publishers. Frum people (well, some frum people) will still read your book, and you will also be able to be read by the wider world.

Tova Mirvis's books are much more positive, although I think she is no longer frum so is no longer writing that style of book.

salt

Wed, Apr 25 2018, 6:58 am

farm wrote:

As a reader, it seems to me that Frum authors feel pressured (by publishing houses?) to include hashkafa or various references to Hashem in their fiction stories. I think that is another factor that makes these novels seem silly and babyish. I want an engaging plot with interesting characters. I strongly prefer not to read bad language, bedroom scenes, or extreme violence. But I'm NOT interested in a mussar schmooze in middle of my novel! Why can't frum literature simply have characters who happen to be Jewish (or not! I don't care!)? Why does it end up being such a major factor in the story?

I don't read much adult frum literature, but this is what annoys me about kid's frum literature. Why does it all have to about the mitzvoth they did, and bla bla bla - an example of a happy ending in a frum kids' book would be "Sarahle was happy because even though she couldn't buy the candy she's been so looking forward to, she was proud of the mitzvah she did by giving all her babysitting money to the poor homeless man on the side of the road"
Give me a break.

My kids read secular series too, that I've checked before they read it.
With a few exceptions, they are way more exciting.

PinkFridge

Wed, Apr 25 2018, 8:33 am

farm wrote:

Let's go back to your theoretical book with Jewish characters. What challenges are they facing? Even if it's not something essential to their Yiddishkeit, e.g. how to deal with office dynamics vs. getting fired for being shomer Shabbos isn't the message of this week's parsha that living kedusha underlies every single thing in life? Inevitably, the characters' thoughts and actions will be informed by their Yiddishkeit.

Last edited by PinkFridge on Wed, Apr 25 2018, 8:43 am; edited 1 time in total

amother

Bronze

Wed, Apr 25 2018, 8:41 am

PinkFridge wrote:

I don't want to start a tangent re kids' literature but this is especially so in kids' books. Which makes sense. If there's nothing Jewish about a book, why should people shell out big bucks when they can get secular books for less? But kids want fun in their books too. The challenge is to create a fun, readable book, with a message that's not delivered with a sledgehammer.

Let's go back to your theoretical book with Jewish characters. What challenges are they facing? Even if it's not something essential to their Yiddishkeit, e.g. how to deal with office dynamics vs. getting fired for being shomer Shabbos isn't the message of this week's parsha that living kedusha underlies every single thing in life? Inevitably, the characters' thoughts and actions will be informed by their Yiddishkeit.

Characters can act according to their beliefs without the "and so what we learn from this is" moment. Good writers respect their readers and don't talk down to them. If you can't make your point within the narrative itself, you aren't writing well.

PinkFridge

Wed, Apr 25 2018, 8:42 am

Raisin wrote:

Something I thought after logging off:
There are women who have some insider status who are writing Jewish books for the general public. Are there frum women who are writing books for the general public that are NOT Jewish? Under a pseudonym? Any really, really competent frum writers (men too, for that matter) writing for the more lucrative general public, any genre? Just curious.

Unfortunately, some of the writers of Jewish content seem bent on creating unsympathetic characters. Sure, in real life, you will have frum jerks but if this is the only exposure the general public will have, it comes across as ugly stereotype of the sort that would come from anti-Semites. I still remember one book, people can pm for book and author in which

Hidden:

Warning: if you open the spoiler alert and then want to read the book, you may be upset with me.

keym

Wed, Apr 25 2018, 8:49 am

PinkFridge wrote:

You know there is a very big difference between Yiddishkeit and Yiddishe choices being an integral part of a persons life and being smashed over your head with it.
Of course being Jewish is the driving force behind the characters decision but it doesnt have to mean long winded hashkafa shiurim at the dinner table.
Im having a hard time explaining.
But yeah marcus lehman has jewish story and plot without having to include a hashkafa shiur.

amother

Pumpkin

Wed, Apr 25 2018, 9:09 am

I am and have always been an avid and voracious reader. I have found more good books in frum lit than secular whose standards have taken a real nosedive over the past decades.
Could list a lot of excellent frum authors and books many already noted here. another shout out for Uri Meir Gottesmans books - LOOOOOOOVE!!!!!

PinkFridge

Wed, Apr 25 2018, 9:09 am

keym wrote:

No, I get it totally. My post was directed to anyone for whom this wasn't obvious.

amother

Puce

Wed, Apr 25 2018, 9:13 am

keym wrote:

I check over my teenage dds' books before they read them. Recently they picked a few Christian books. I was pleasantly surprised. They were well written and interesting, but included a lot of Christian references and a lot of mussar type of statements. A lot of focus on being honest, on only platonic dating, a lot of bein adam l'chaveiro type of situations. But I really didn't feel like I was being talked down to or smashed over my head. Maybe because the book as a whole was enjoyable to read.

amother

Hotpink

Wed, Apr 25 2018, 11:39 am

DVOM wrote:

I'm really curious about this. Do you feel comfortable elaborating? What sorts of things would be censored?

There can be no mention of thinks like birth control, or drugs, you can't fully delve into people's ambivalence or frustration to certain mitzvos, or emunah in general. I wrote a story that was rejected because there was a suggestion that the woman thought her husband thought about a previous woman he dated... there's also language, everyone's speech is tamed down, words like "jerk" and "idiot" are sparse though many of us may use it on a day to day basis to describe people (not even talking about actual swear words)...you can't even talk about periods or niddah, not in TMI way, but in an actual reflection of day to day life... is that enough examples? Wink

amother

Tangerine

Wed, Apr 25 2018, 11:47 am

amother wrote:

I would love to see a list of books others consider quality frum literature. Maybe someone should start a spinoff?

amother

Tangerine

Wed, Apr 25 2018, 11:50 am

amother wrote:

Brother Can You Raise a Million did talk about niddah, and it felt very ew. It may take an extremely talented author to incorporate it without being TMI.

Iymnok

Wed, Apr 25 2018, 12:11 pm

amother wrote:

Have you read "The Race"?

amother

Salmon

Wed, Apr 25 2018, 9:27 pm

amother wrote:

Another writer chiming in here. Don't forget that couples cant have any major disagreements, every characters' middos and level of emunah must be beyond reproach, and no one's ever heard of the internet, ever. Rolling Eyes

amother

Lemon

Wed, Apr 25 2018, 9:44 pm

amother wrote:

On this site you're talking about Christian books? What in the world. Yes they may be clean. No I would not read them nor let my children read them nor be pleased if they did. Need I explain why?

no one is telling you to read a Christian book.