Invite guest you don't know well do you say cholov stam?

amother

Navy

Fri, May 11 2018, 5:51 am

amother wrote:

It is not that hard with one area, but it seems too hard with an entire way of life. FFBs are not taught that way.

We are taught this is the way frum people do things. There are bright lines we don't cross. An example is that girls wear skirts below their knees. We are never told pants are acceptable or short skirts are ok, and you can still be frum. We are taught this is a violation of Halacha. The same is done with head coverings. We are told that if you get married, you cover your hair. We are not told it is acceptable if you choose not to cover your hair.

I have had to explain over and over again that certain people are frum who have bare legs with short skirts and don't cover their hair.

I don't think it is reasonable to ask someone to give over something that is not their understanding.

There's a world of difference between how we teach children and how we teach adults. For children, a black and white world is necessary; for adults, it's dangerous.

As the daughter and granddaughter of rabbis whose names you might know, I'm quite familiar with how FFB children are raised. I just don't think that baalei teshuva should be treated like children.

amother

Bronze

Fri, May 11 2018, 6:03 am

amother wrote:

Again, you are asking people to teach a way of Judiasm they don't believe in. I have a close friend in kiruv. She teaches adults that Jewish ladies are covered up to their elbows, knees, necklines, and married women cover their hair. They don't teach it is ok to ignore all or any of it.

I also have rabbis in my family whose names you probably know, it doesn't make me a rabbi, nor give me one iota of credibility more than anyone else.

When I go to hear speakers as an adult living in a frum community, I am never told we don't need to do any of what the speaker is discussing. Let's say the topic is on the beauty of tznius. No one says that you are free to ignore.

amother

Seagreen

Fri, May 11 2018, 6:35 am

amother wrote:

The case under discussion was gebrokts on Pesach. No one thinks that's halacha. But even if it were about cholov yisroel, intellectual honesty requires giving the new baal teshuva a full picture of halachic practice. That is, what's done by religious Jews who aren't just like me.

This wasn't a blanket criticism of people who do kiruv. It was directed at those who are perhaps too ignorant, too insecure or too narrow minded to show baalei teshuva the full range of halachic Judaism.

Royalblue and Navy, I'm not sure what chip you have on your shoulder against kiruv professionals who are devoting their lives to sharing what they know and love with less fortunate Yidden, but it is YOUR view that is narrow and unrealistic.

And just to let you know, yes, as mentioned before, we actually did learn about various minhagim. Even when it came to CY and CS we sat down and learned the halachos and about DA cows, modern surgery methods for those DA cows, how people can hold that CS is okay, and why Chabad holds that it is not.

But again, until you have real life experience, everything remains theoretical. I had never seen someone eating gebrokts at that point of my life, so I didn't even think that there was anything to worry about.

amother

Seagreen

Fri, May 11 2018, 6:39 am

amother wrote:

The people you are calling ignorant, insecure, and narrow minded probably think you are criticizing them because you are ignorant, insecure and narrow minded. Intellectual honesty requires you to acknowledge the argument is two sided.

I stand by my statement that the wonderful kiruv people know what they are doing. Imagine teaching tznius to a BT. You would want them to explain halacha as they know it. And then give over every other option? That's ridiculous and overwhelming.

When explaining Pesach, do you really think Kiruv folks are duty bound to explain every variation? I think getting the BT ready to observe Pesach in a frum manner is a remarkable achievement. The body of knowledge is so vast. I am FFB, and I am still learning.

amother

Navy

Fri, May 11 2018, 6:43 am

amother wrote:

What's narrow and unrealistic about being aware of different paths in avodas Hashem? Sure, I follow the path I think is best, but it would be arrogant for me to assume that everyone has to live as I do.

I'm glad you have found a good place for yourself.

amother

Gray

Fri, May 11 2018, 6:50 am

amother wrote:

I don't think it's such a big deal to say to your guest - quick question - does your family eat chalav stam? And if they don't, should accommodate them by using only chalav yisrael in what you serve them (after all they are your guests!).

Just curious - why was I "hugged" for this?

If you eat chalav stam & others only eat chalav yisrael, does it make you feel self conscious or something? Because it doesn't make me feel that way! We're both religious Jews, just follow different opinions - I don't see why it seems to be a sore point to some!

amother

Wheat

Fri, May 11 2018, 7:30 am

amother wrote:

I'm not the hugger, but I can see why some people might disagree. I think it's fine to confirm in advance whether a potential guest would feel comfortable with the food served at your table. However, as someone who keeps CS, and in a community where CY is not the norm and the food items are not widely available, I would not feel the need to prepare a CY meal for a guest. Rather, I would make sure to have enough vegan or pareve choices that all will have something to enjoy and no one will be hungry.

amother

Mint

Fri, May 11 2018, 7:42 am

Iymnok wrote:

They now put a tube in the cow to relieve flatulence. That makes the animal a treifa. Cholov Yisroel milk comes from cows without this procedure. Milk from a treif animal is treif.
I don’t know how widespread this is or much else in the subject.
I live in Israel, so it is a moot point for me.

They don't put a tube in, in general. Occasionally a cow can suffer from a life threatening condition called bloat. It is essentially a build up of gas that the cow can't pass. It can kill a cow in minutes and causes huge pain to the animal. There are many ways to relieve this condition. The most common is to put a tube down the cows throat, this doesn't render the cow treif. Another way is to turn the cow upside down. One way is to pierce the cows side with a metal straw to relieve the gas. This method renders the cow treif.

However, we also know that a percentage of cows are treif anyway. We just can't see their lungs until schechita.

Because of the second point we hold by batul b'shishim otherwise NO milk would be kosher.

Which is why people hold that milk where there is a chance (but safek) that a cow may be treif (either through injury or because a certain percentage of all cows are treif), is considered kosher.

CY milk also includes milk from treif cows.

amother

Royalblue

Fri, May 11 2018, 7:45 am

amother wrote:

I didn't say anything about Kiruv professionals.

amother

Royalblue

Fri, May 11 2018, 8:07 am

amother wrote:

Not at all. Your reaction was unbalanced and abnormal. We just happen to agree on this one point, and you misconstrued what I wrote in the original posting.

Okay here is how I construed your original posting. Your conclusion from your experience was not to take any personal responsibility going forward. That the poor experience you had was completely the fault of the hostess and your friend. If that is not what you actually were saying - I apologize.

As I read it in your story - you had no contact at all with the hostess prior to dinner. She didn't know you. She seemed to be providing you this meal as a favor to her neice. You would have wanted her to, after her neice asked if she could host you for dinner, to go all out and start asking about your food preferences, your kashurut... that's expecting a lot from a woman who as been asked to host you.

Again - you were a teen. I'm not blasting you for what happened when you were a teen. Its way done and over with. Its the lesson learned from the experience that set me off.

You want to call me unbalanced and abnormal - fine. I'll take it.

I'm glad that you took from your experience a lesson in how to 'do better' as a hostess - but based on how you wrote it, the hostess was acting very much in the norm. Her perfomance of hachnasat orchim was acceptable.

In the end of the day - as adults we are personally responsible to make sure that we have acceptable food to eat every day.

amother

Seagreen

Fri, May 11 2018, 8:33 am

amother wrote:

Okay here is how I construed your original posting. Your conclusion from your experience was not to take any personal responsibility going forward. That the poor experience you had was completely the fault of the hostess and your friend. If that is not what you actually were saying - I apologize.

As I read it in your story - you had no contact at all with the hostess prior to dinner. She didn't know you. She seemed to be providing you this meal as a favor to her nephew. You would have wanted her to, after her nephew asked if she could host you for dinner, to go all out and start asking about your food preferences, your kashurut... that's expecting a lot from a woman who as been asked to host you.

Again - you were a teen. I'm not blasting you for what happened when you were a teen. Its way done and over with. Its the lesson learned from the experience that set me off.

You want to call me unbalanced and abnormal - fine. I'll take it.

I'm glad that you took from your experience a lesson in how to 'do better' as a hostess - but based on how you wrote it, the hostess was acting very much in the norm. Her perfomance of hachnasat orchim was acceptable.

In the end of the day - as adults we are personally responsible to make sure that we have acceptable food to eat every day.

Let me break it down for you:

My coworker invited me to eat over at her aunt's house, knowing full well that I was a vegetarian and that, at that point, I kept Chabad minhagim. I'm accepted, having never met her aunt. She simply gave me the address and told me what time to walk over.

Yes, it was her responsibility. She contacted her aunt and asked to bring a girl to the meal, which was me. She had info about my dietary restrictions and she arranged everything, so therefore, it was her responsibility. If I had booked the reservation, I would have taken responsibility, as I have always done, even as a teen.

And yes, the hostess acted very rudely to me, and berated me for not eating her chicken. She insisted that I at least eat the soup. I ate it with tears in my eyes, utterly humiliated and upset that my choices were not respected.

A good hostess swallows her upsetness if there are any unintended surprises. This was not a good hostess, and I was not a bad guest. I even apologized that she hadn't known in advance and made sure to compliment her that everything looked and smelled wonderful.

It is never acceptable to make your guest feel like garbage, especially when it is NOT HER FAULT.

amother

Bronze

Fri, May 11 2018, 8:39 am

amother wrote:

I am not the hugger, but maybe you got the hug because you are unaware that many would not eat CY coming out of a CS kitchen.

amother

Royalblue

Fri, May 11 2018, 8:58 am

amother wrote:

Got it. You took this thread as an opportunity to vent about hostess who was not a nice lady. No disagreement here - she was not a nice lady. A hostess should never make a guest feel like garbage.

That's a big tangent to a conversation about communication about kashrut/minhagim/chumras, and who is responsible for that communication.

amother

Bronze

Fri, May 11 2018, 9:08 am

amother wrote:

Even when it is their fault, you don't embarrass a guest.

amother

Gray

Fri, May 11 2018, 12:10 pm

amother wrote:

I am not the hugger, but maybe you got the hug because you are unaware that many would not eat CY coming out of a CS kitchen.

Ok, I wasn't aware of that, I guess I'd try not to be insulted as I could understand if that is someone's derech (hasn't happened before, so can't know for sure how I'd feel, but at least logically I can still understand it). The intended guest would still appreciate my thought of inviting & I guess we'd have to meet other ways - like at the park with our kids or whatever to get to know each other better. But I'm thinking some people with minhagim like that probably don't eat at others in general & then would just refuse the invitation altogether without too much discussion (hopefully in a nice way!).

amother

Seagreen

Fri, May 11 2018, 1:34 pm

amother wrote:

No, I mentioned it to show the importance of open communication to prevent bad feelings on all sides. You twisted it according to your own bizarre understanding.