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Laiya









  


Post  Wed, May 16 2018, 10:41 am
SixOfWands wrote:

And I'll say it again. Was it worth it to have a US embassy in Jerusalem? Not from where I'm sitting now.


Israel has said that these Hamas-led riots are being funded by Iran. The US embassy has little to do with it.
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PinkFridge









  


Post  Wed, May 16 2018, 10:43 am
Momof14 wrote:
The fact that so many liberal Jews aren't backing Israel is in my humble opinion part of the tzaarr we have to undergo in galus. It's utterly devastating and painful. How short our memories are. Exactly to where do all these people think they are going to run to ,Chas veshalom if the tide ever turns against them in the Diaspora? To Israel that s where! Because Eretz Yisrael is the past and future of Jews everywhere given to us by H-shem .....please let's not forget that. History has shown us we can't afford to.


It is the inclination to stick up for the (perceived) underdog. IIRC Rabbi Tatz talks about this re Mitzrayim worshipping the sheep.
It sounds so humane, and indeed this inclination is: it's why there is a mitzvah, repeatedly stated, to care for the orphan, widow, convert, I.e. the most vulnerable among us. The problem is when we start to be kind to the cruel because they seem to be the most oppressed, or the minority, when they are so unworthy of our care.
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PinkFridge









  


Post  Wed, May 16 2018, 10:45 am
SixOfWands wrote:
And the truth is somewhere in between.

There were plenty of non-violent, non-terrorist protesters, who genuinely believe their political position (and who genuinely believe that Israel is not a partner for peace), and many of them were injured, or even killed.

There were plenty of people armed with guns and knives (neither of which would do much good if they couldn't breach the border) and with grenades and molotov cocktails and other weapons which, while not as sophisticated, can most assuredly do harm.

There were plenty of calls for the destruction of Israel. But those are so common that they're virtually background noise.

But Israel didn't do everything right, either. Even Israel admits that. According to Haaretz, a senior Israeli army spokesman admitted Tuesday that Israel failed to minimize the number of Palestinian casualties, and that some were hit by mistake.

Its a big PR battle, and Israel lost.

And I'll say it again. Was it worth it to have a US embassy in Jerusalem? Not from where I'm sitting now.


And we have angst over the mistakes, when the other side rejoices over deliberate deaths.
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Orchid









  


Post  Wed, May 16 2018, 10:46 am
SixOfWands wrote:

And I'll say it again. Was it worth it to have a US embassy in Jerusalem? Not from where I'm sitting now.


These "protests" started well before the embassy move.
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Laiya









  


Post  Wed, May 16 2018, 10:48 am
SixOfWands wrote:
And the truth is somewhere in between.

There were plenty of non-violent, non-terrorist protesters, who genuinely believe their political position (and who genuinely believe that Israel is not a partner for peace) .


These are oppressed people, living in poverty under a tyrannical regime and with limited access to outside news and no freedom of speech. It's hard to know what their actual opinions are.

And yes, very sad that they were lied to by Hamas and encouraged to put their lives in danger.
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Laiya









  


Post  Wed, May 16 2018, 10:51 am
SixOfWands wrote:
Its a big PR battle, and Israel lost.


Is it possible for Israel to ever win the PR battle?
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SixOfWands









  


Post  Wed, May 16 2018, 10:53 am
Laiya wrote:
Is it possible for Israel to ever win the PR battle?


Not at an acceptable cost.
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etky









  


Post  Wed, May 16 2018, 10:56 am
SixOfWands wrote:
And the truth is somewhere in between.

There were plenty of non-violent, non-terrorist protesters, who genuinely believe their political position (and who genuinely believe that Israel is not a partner for peace), and many of them were injured, or even killed.

There were plenty of people armed with guns and knives (neither of which would do much good if they couldn't breach the border) and with grenades and molotov cocktails and other weapons which, while not as sophisticated, can most assuredly do harm.

There were plenty of calls for the destruction of Israel. But those are so common that they're virtually background noise.

But Israel didn't do everything right, either. Even Israel admits that. According to Haaretz, a senior Israeli army spokesman admitted Tuesday that Israel failed to minimize the number of Palestinian casualties, and that some were hit by mistake.

Its a big PR battle, and Israel lost.

And I'll say it again. Was it worth it to have a US embassy in Jerusalem? Not from where I'm sitting now.


Hamas itself has stated that 50 of the 61 killed were members of Hamas - by definition then, not innocent civilians protesting peacefully.
As for mistakes - yeah those happen during violent events. As I said before - anyone who was there, especially those who were being paid to be there, knew exactly what they were getting into as well as the attendant risks.
I agree that we lost the PR battle. As usual.
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DrMom









  


Post  Wed, May 16 2018, 10:58 am
SixOfWands wrote:
And the truth is somewhere in between.

There were plenty of non-violent, non-terrorist protesters, who genuinely believe their political position (and who genuinely believe that Israel is not a partner for peace), and many of them were injured, or even killed.

There were plenty of people armed with guns and knives (neither of which would do much good if they couldn't breach the border) and with grenades and molotov cocktails and other weapons which, while not as sophisticated, can most assuredly do harm.

There were plenty of calls for the destruction of Israel. But those are so common that they're virtually background noise.

But Israel didn't do everything right, either. Even Israel admits that. According to Haaretz, a senior Israeli army spokesman admitted Tuesday that Israel failed to minimize the number of Palestinian casualties, and that some were hit by mistake.

Its a big PR battle, and Israel lost.

And I'll say it again. Was it worth it to have a US embassy in Jerusalem? Not from where I'm sitting now.

Why does Israel need to be perfect?

You have 1000s of bloodthirsty terrorists who have openly stated their intention is to kill Israelis, egged on by Hamas (whose charter states that their purpose is to obliterate Israel and kill Jews), which is in turn funded by Iran (whose parliament regularly chants "Death to Israel!"), and you are outraged that there was collateral damage?

I don't see you apply these stringent standards to any other nation on the planet.

Also, I find it telling that you consider 1000s of armed terrorists attempting to infiltrate my tiny country to be trivial "background noise." I think it is quite serious.

BTW, do you have anything to say about the behavior of the Gazans? Do you think that relocating an embassy justifies this behavior? Or is everything they do excusable because, after all, we deserve it; we provoked them by acknowledging our capital city.

Some American Jews are so cowed by their liberal high-minded friends that they have lost their backbone - and their moral compass.

I care more about the truth than PR with anti-Semites.
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mama24









  


Post  Wed, May 16 2018, 11:12 am
SixOfWands wrote:
I'm saddened because any loss of life is sad, no matter who caused it. An 8 month old baby died from tear gas inhalation. You want to blame her parents? Sure, they're at fault. But its still tragic.
why is a 8 mo at the demonstrations? !
I read that they killed people that tried to push other woman and kids to close to the fires. They like it when woman and kids are in this war zones. It's more nebach. I ABSOLUTELY DON'T PITY PEOPLE THAT DON'T HAVE PITY ON THEMSELVES OR THEIR WIVES OR THEIR KIDS!!!
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SixOfWands









  


Post  Wed, May 16 2018, 11:17 am
mama24 wrote:
why is a 8 mo at the demonstrations? !
I read that they killed people that tried to push other woman and kids to close to the fires. They like it when woman and kids are in this war zones. It's more nebach. I ABSOLUTELY DON'T PITY PEOPLE THAT DON'T HAVE PITY ON THEMSELVES OR THEIR WIVES OR THEIR KIDS!!!


According to the parents, it was an accident that they were there.

Doesn't matter. If you can't be sad at the death of a baby, we've nothing to discuss.
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mama24









  


Post  Wed, May 16 2018, 11:25 am
SixOfWands wrote:
According to the parents, it was an accident that they were there.

Doesn't matter. If you can't be sad at the death of a baby, we've nothing to discuss.
when hashem asked the jews to kill all of amaleik, even their animals. (and they didn't because they pitied the animals) it's said that whoever has pity on bad people won't have pity on good people when necessary!
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etky









  


Post  Wed, May 16 2018, 11:32 am
SixOfWands wrote:
According to the parents, it was an accident that they were there.

Doesn't matter. If you can't be sad at the death of a baby, we've nothing to discuss.



Sad yes. Culpable and guiltridden, no.
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SixOfWands









  


Post  Wed, May 16 2018, 11:35 am
DrMom wrote:
Why does Israel need to be perfect?

You have 1000s of bloodthirsty terrorists who have openly stated their intention is to kill Israelis, egged on by Hamas (whose charter states that their purpose is to obliterate Israel and kill Jews), which is in turn funded by Iran (whose parliament regularly chants "Death to Israel!"), and you are outraged that there was collateral damage?

I don't see you apply these stringent standards to any other nation on the planet.

Also, I find it telling that you consider 1000s of armed terrorists attempting to infiltrate my tiny country to be trivial "background noise." I think it is quite serious.

BTW, do you have anything to say about the behavior of the Gazans? Do you think that relocating an embassy justifies this behavior? Or is everything they do excusable because, after all, we deserve it; we provoked them by acknowledging our capital city.

Some American Jews are so cowed by their liberal high-minded friends that they have lost their backbone - and their moral compass.

I care more about the truth than PR with anti-Semites.


You see, this is what angers me.

I responded to someone who said that the right wing said Israel was perfect, while the left wing said the Palestinians were, by saying that BOTH sides did things wrong. Which even the IDF admits.

And you attack me.

You excise where I talk about the faults of the Gazans.

You fail to point to any outrage at the Israelis, which of course doesn't exist. Just sadness. Sadness at people dying. If you cannot be sad that a baby died, then you have lost all humanity, and I pity you as well.

That's the problem with you conservatives. You create straw men in order to attack and vilify others, and really don't care about the fact that you're spouting nothing more than a bunch of lies. But this is personal, and it infuriates me.

At this moment, a boy who practically grew up in my home is fighting on the Gaza border. And 5 or 6 more who regularly sat at my Shabbat table are in the Israeli army, or about to join the Israeli army, but I don't know where they're stationed. My oldest son has repeatedly stated that he'll be joining them in 2 years, and I'm guessing my youngest will follow in a few years. Maybe DD2 as well. I care about Israel.

But you don't give a darn about that. You just care about attacking me.
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leah233









  


Post  Wed, May 16 2018, 11:37 am
In this context there is no such a thing as an "innocent or peaceful protester"

When you join a group that is trying to breech a border fence during a time of quasi war you have a very good chance of getting shot and killed. No matter which country you are in and what you are fighting for. Anyone joining the protests understood that.

If the Gazans want to die for a cause and a better life they should try overthrow Chamas and put in a government that is interested in making a better life for its citizens instead of endless fighting. When that happens there will be no more Egyptian or Israeli blockades or other issues causing such misery to Gaza residents.
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smile12345









  


Post  Wed, May 16 2018, 11:45 am
SixOfWands wrote:
According to the parents, it was an accident that they were there.

Doesn't matter. If you can't be sad at the death of a baby, we've nothing to discuss.


Of course everyone is sad for the baby. But, unfortunately there's nothing to be done about it, if terrorists are happy to use children as shields.

Gaza might be relatively small, though one doesn't 'by mistake' land up at a violent protest by the border. We're not talking about a march in the town square.


Last edited by smile12345 on Wed, May 16 2018, 11:46 am; edited 1 time in total
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moonstone









  


Post  Wed, May 16 2018, 11:46 am
DrMom wrote:
Why does Israel need to be perfect?

You have 1000s of bloodthirsty terrorists who have openly stated their intention is to kill Israelis, egged on by Hamas (whose charter states that their purpose is to obliterate Israel and kill Jews), which is in turn funded by Iran (whose parliament regularly chants "Death to Israel!"), and you are outraged that there was collateral damage?

I don't see you apply these stringent standards to any other nation on the planet.

Also, I find it telling that you consider 1000s of armed terrorists attempting to infiltrate my tiny country to be trivial "background noise." I think it is quite serious.

BTW, do you have anything to say about the behavior of the Gazans? Do you think that relocating an embassy justifies this behavior? Or is everything they do excusable because, after all, we deserve it; we provoked them by acknowledging our capital city.

Some American Jews are so cowed by their liberal high-minded friends that they have lost their backbone - and their moral compass.

I care more about the truth than PR with anti-Semites.


Kol hakavod, Dr. Mom. I can't like your post enough. Applause
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sushilover









  


Post  Wed, May 16 2018, 12:09 pm
SixOfWands wrote:
According to the parents, it was an accident that they were there.

Doesn't matter. If you can't be sad at the death of a baby, we've nothing to discuss.


I agree.
Sure, don't pity the mother if you think she's at fault. But there's something wrong if you can't find any rachmanus in your heart for the baby.
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Fox









  


Post  Wed, May 16 2018, 12:22 pm
The plot has thickened quite a bit since yesterday.

As Etky pointed out, Hamas itself has released a list of "martyrs." Fifty of the names on the list are known Hamas operatives, and all but a handful are men of military age. Isn't it amazing that the IDF was somehow able to pick out those individuals from all the non-violent protesters? Or maybe it's not so hard at all when the people storming the border were not "protestors" at all, but rather members of a military group.

However, that's the least of it.

Hamas has also released a more detailed photo composite of 24 high-ranking officers who were among those allegedly killed by the IDF. These were all individuals at the corresponding rank of "colonel" or above, and they would not have been out throwing rocks, burning tires, and tossing Molotov cocktails.

So if these men were really killed, it wasn't part of the conflict at the border. It was quite likely a covert operation conducted well within Gaza. It's possible it was conducted exclusively by the IDF, but it is far more likely that it was done by the GCC.

Either way, it's both a blow and a message to Iran. Not only have two dozen key personnel been taken out, but it's a message that Hamas is vulnerable.

I'm usually not terribly persuaded by conspiracy theories. Well, except about Princess Diana, who was clearly murdered. I mean, it's hard enough to get a group of people to order Chinese food, let alone anything more complex. But the timing of all this is awfully convenient.

As an Iran proxy, Hamas seems to have almost been prodded in the last few weeks to take a stand: first, denunciations by Bahrain and Saudi Arabia; then, the U.S. exit from the JCPOA. Opening the embassy at this particular time was certain to provoke Hamas, which may have been the goal all along. The resulting border conflict provided excellent cover for a covert ground operation that was staged successfully while the everyone's attention was focused elsewhere.
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southernbubby









  


Post  Wed, May 16 2018, 12:44 pm
SixOfWands wrote:
You see, this is what angers me.

I responded to someone who said that the right wing said Israel was perfect, while the left wing said the Palestinians were, by saying that BOTH sides did things wrong. Which even the IDF admits.

And you attack me.

You excise where I talk about the faults of the Gazans.

You fail to point to any outrage at the Israelis, which of course doesn't exist. Just sadness. Sadness at people dying. If you cannot be sad that a baby died, then you have lost all humanity, and I pity you as well.

That's the problem with you conservatives. You create straw men in order to attack and vilify others, and really don't care about the fact that you're spouting nothing more than a bunch of lies. But this is personal, and it infuriates me.

At this moment, a boy who practically grew up in my home is fighting on the Gaza border. And 5 or 6 more who regularly sat at my Shabbat table are in the Israeli army, or about to join the Israeli army, but I don't know where they're stationed. My oldest son has repeatedly stated that he'll be joining them in 2 years, and I'm guessing my youngest will follow in a few years. Maybe DD2 as well. I care about Israel.

But you don't give a darn about that. You just care about attacking me.


And I have a problem with any Jew who considers the Israelis to be occupiers or oppressors and that the Gazans are the oppressed and that big dog Israel is using excessive force on people who have been robbed of their dignity for too long or that they are entitled to their 2 state solution.

This is our land.

We are it's people.

We must defend ourselves even at the expense of innocent civilians.

We must never forget that we are Jews before we are citizens of the world or of any other country and that we have been exiled, annihilated, or treated as second class citizens in most countries in the world.

My son is already at the Gaza and has been every week day for years because that is what he is paid to do on behalf of Chabad. He puts tefillin on chayalim before they go into the danger zone. They seem to welcome his presence and that of the other Chabad rabbonim that are sent there. (They refer to it as Chabad of Aza). He normally feels safe but yesterday his car broke down on some rock strewn road so we were all a bit nervous until help came.
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