Mitzvah tantz | Imamother

amother

Smokey

Thu, May 24 2018, 1:12 pm

I just saw a clip of a mitvah tantz of a major chassidus. I simply don't understand how this is tznius. Thousands of men are watching a woman dance. These are the same people that are so strict about no women in newspapers etc. I am not trying to bash them, but I simply am trying to understand how and why it's ok.

kerem

Thu, May 24 2018, 1:28 pm

The woman does NOT dance. She only holds her end of the gartel.

judyjew

Thu, May 24 2018, 1:29 pm

The kallah does not dance. The men dance with her or the shechinah or whatever. She just stands there holding the other end of the gartel. When she "dances" with father/ grandfather/ husband, she's just holding hands and maybe walking a bit, but you don't even see leg movement under that huge gown so what's the problem?

amother

Jetblack

Thu, May 24 2018, 1:32 pm

As others said, the kallah doesn't dance. By most rebbisha weddings the kallahs face is covered with a mesh veil. At Viznitz wedding the chosson/kallah don't have a mitzva tanz. They have one the night before.

amother

Smokey

Thu, May 24 2018, 1:33 pm

Ok, she just walks slowly, it still seems untznius

amother

Orchid

Thu, May 24 2018, 1:42 pm

The first mitzvah tanz I ever saw was my own. It was over 35 years ago. It was not my family's minhag and I had never seen one, and there was no Youtube to educate me. I really did not want to do it. On one hand I wish I had had some kind of education of the meaning behind it and its significance. (Apparently it is very meaningful for some.) But I didn't and I have to say as a 19 year old bride it was terrible. As I said I had never seen one. None of my relatives or friends had had one. I was never so uncomfortable or embarrassed in my life. I hated every minute of it and for many years felt terrible resentment for the people involved (my DH and his father for pushing it through and my parents for sitting back and saying yes to whatever was forced on them). The irony is that this is a pattern that continued for many years and had led to a lot of resentment. BH I have worked on myself over this time and have managed to let go of it. But that Mitzvah Tanz was in a sense symbolic, of me just standing there and the beginning of many years of pain and not being heard.

judyjew

Thu, May 24 2018, 1:59 pm

amother wrote:

I'm so sorry you went through that. It must have been hard to feel forced through it, especially if you were so unfamiliar with the whole thing. For me the mitzvah tantz was my favorite part of the wedding. It was so emotional dancing with my father and grandfather and it was such a sweet way to start off with dh. It was also nice to "dance" with my uncles and great uncles who came from far who wanted to share in the simcha and were stuck until then on the other side of the mechitza.

naturalmom5

Thu, May 24 2018, 2:57 pm

I am ironically, the last one to defend this , but to be honest...

My husband told me, that

1) Only close family and intimate relatives are supposed to stay... NOT BOCHURIM...

2) It is brought down in seforim kedoshim, that if you don't feel a spiritual awakening by being present at the Mitzva Tans, its a sign your neshoma isn't attuned to holiness, and you should leave...

amother

Maroon

Thu, May 24 2018, 3:06 pm

naturalmom5 wrote:

Mitzva tanzes are a relatively new invention so I'm not sure what seforim kedoshim you are referring to..

My take on this:
- In the right-wing chassidish circles, the mitzva tanzes are okay, though I don't understand why the very strict rules are suddenly relaxed for this.
- In the modern chassidish circles, it has gone totally out of hand and is down-right untznius.

Chayalle

Thu, May 24 2018, 3:06 pm

naturalmom, I'm curious which seforim kedoshim you are referring to.

I come from a more heimish background, and most of my extended family does mitzva tanz. My litvack DH DOES NOT - I capitalize that to show how strongly he feels about it. I did not have a mitzva tanz, and my DH will not stay by one, so I missed the mitzva tanz of my younger siblings. Exception being two of my brothers, where I flew overseas to the wedding without DH, and he told me I'm free to be there....and my youngest sister, where mitzva tanz was a very short token, and due to our all being in aveilus for my mother A"H, DH agreed to stay with a promise he wouldn't be called up.

So I hear both sides, having grown up with it, and knowing DH's opinion on it (which comes from his very Litvish grandfather, who was very against the practice.)

I'll say this, though - the very Chassidish mitzva tanzes I've seen are pretty sedate, and I doubt there's any real tznius issue. The Kallah basically just stands there, maybe walks a little. But I've seen mitzvah tanzes with serious tznius issues, where even my Chassidish relatives would disapprove. Leads me to understand DH's POV.

Chayalle

Thu, May 24 2018, 3:07 pm

amother wrote:

This. Well said.

mommyhood

Thu, May 24 2018, 3:18 pm

I saw that clip and while I wouldn't call it not tznius since she was just walking I was cringing imagining being the only woman in a room surrounded by men it seems so uncomfortable. Unless the women were there and out of sight of the camera.

naturalmom5

Thu, May 24 2018, 3:35 pm

Chayalle wrote:

Fascinating..

I had a M Tanz, even though I went to Chabad Seminary, and its not a Lubavitch minhag, my husband wanted it..

If memory serves, its a very long time ago,

R Aryeh Kaplan zl, wrote a book on wedding customs, and brings many sources for the mitzva tanz

. The Gemara makes reference to “dancing before the kallah.” The Machzor Vitri (496) writes that, “Following the meal we take the chosson and kallah and we seat them facing each other. We then dance around them etc.” Some point to the Machzor Vitri as the source for the mitzvah tantz, even though he makes no reference of dancing with the kallah, which is usually the case with the mitzvah tantz.

3. Many chassidic seforim explain that the mitzvah tantz carries great spiritual importance (see Sefer Derech Pekudecha Mitzvah Lo Saaseh 35:14, Sefer Avnei Esaser and Sefer Netai Gavriel Nisuin chapter 45).

4. The Sefer Shulchan Haezer (vol. 2 page 80) illustrates the importance of this custom from the following story. Grand Rabbi Moshe Hager of Kosov zt”l was once approached by a very poor kallah a few days before her wedding. She wished to receive charity from the Rebbe. The Rebbe gave her money and said that due to his age and the arduous trip he will not be able to attend the wedding. However, he does wish to perform the great mitzvah of dancing before the kallah. So he donned his Shabbos clothing and performed the mitzvah tantz.

5. The Pischei Teshuva (Even Haezer 65:2), however, cites the Sefer Torah Chaim who prohibits dancing with the kallah, even if a gartel is used and no physical contact is made with the kallah. He adds that the Gemara discusses the virtue of dancing “before” the kallah, not “with” the kallah.

Based upon this teaching, Harav Moshe Stern zt”l (shu”t Beer Moshe 4:131) writes that he performs a modified version of mitzvah tantz. He dances before the kallah without holding a gartel. This was also the practice of the great Rebbe of Shinova zt”l (see Sefer Divrei Torah Munkatch vol. 1 note 6), Harav Yosef Greenwald (Pupa Rav) and Harav Yekusiel Yehudah Halberstam zt”l (see Netai Gavriel 45:3).

6. Those who do use a gartel during the mitzvah tantz feel that since the man is not touching the woman (or her clothing), but rather he is touching the same thing that she is touching, there is no prohibition. Even though normally this is not something that one would do (as it may be prohibited for a husband to act this way with his wife when she is a nidah- see Shach Yoreh Deah 195:2), for the sake of the mitzvah of simchas chosson v’kallah it is permitted (see Shulchan Haezer ibid.).

Moreover, the kallah does not really “dance.” She merely holds on to the gartel as the man dances. This way they are really dancing “before” the kallah and not “with” her (Shu”t Vayivarech David Nisuin page 278).

7. Ashkenazim and sefardim do not have the custom to perform the mitzvah tantz. Chabad Chassidim also do not have the custom to perform the mitzvah tantz (see Netai Gavriel ibid.).

8. The Bach (Even Haezer 21) writes that if one has the custom to perform the mitzvah tantz he may continue to do so. If he does not have such a custom, then one may not decide to perform the mitzvah tantz. This ruling was cited by the Chelkas Mechokek and Beis Shmuel as normative halacha.

Harav Ovadia Yosef zt”l also rules that sefardim, who do not have the custom of the mitzvah tantz, should not perform the mitzvah tantz (Yalkut Yosef Sovea Semachos page 197)[b]

amother

Lime

Thu, May 24 2018, 3:49 pm

For me my mitzvah tantz was very spiritual. Lately, there are clips on Youtube of Mitzva Tantz's gone wild and those crowds should probably eliminate the mitzva tantz. I've never been to a mitzva tantz that wasn't tznius, they were always very somber and the kallah didn't dance, more like moved a little.

amother

Vermilion

Thu, May 24 2018, 4:09 pm

amother wrote:

I, personally, have become totally disillusioned about mitzvah tantzes. Firstly, I would link this with the other thread, women and mitzvos. The women get no part of this, they get to sit in the sidelines for 2+ hours, watching the men taking over the scene. Secondly, it causes the weddings to end at an ungodly hour, affecting the functioning of all attendees for the next day or two.

Additionally, all this continuous praise lavished on all male attendees is often cringe-worthy. What happened to humility and humbleness? The focus and attention should be about the newly minted couple and not about extolling the virtues of everyone present.

Purple2

Thu, May 24 2018, 4:17 pm

I saw the same clip. Even though the kallah barely moved, I had the exact same thoughts as op. Hundreds of chassidish men basically staring at a women in the middle.
The fact that someone posted that bochurim shouldn’t be there doesn’t make it better. Actually worse.
I don’t get the whole thing either.

iriska_meller

Thu, May 24 2018, 4:38 pm

I never even thought about this but just watched a few clips on you tube and the poor kallas look straight up tortured in these dances. How is this mesameach hatan v’kallah? I cringed while watching

thunderstorm

Thu, May 24 2018, 4:44 pm

amother wrote:

I'm not sure what kind of Mitzvah tantzes you have gone to. But I know that the close relatives and my own Mitzvah tantz were extremely emotional and not only were the men talked about.
I got married during the shloshes Yemei hagballah. The badchan sang about both my mother in law and father in law how they were mekabel the ol Torah years ago (they are geirim) he elaborated on that and sang about the nachas and fruits of their labor that they were reaping. The badchan sang about my non frum grandmother who was sitting there . He said he will sing that part in English so that she could understand . He sang about her character traits and how she was zoche to frum and ehrliche grand children. He sang about her late husband my grandfather how he was looking down from shamayim and reaping great joy. My non frum uncle sat there absorbing every word and crying as my grandmother was sung to.
They sang about my mother , how hard it was for her to raise her children as a single mom and her devotion towards Yiddishkeit . I could go on and on, but it was an extremely lofty and spiritual time. A true eis hisorurus. I davened and felt connected to HaShem during those three hours. I felt so connected to my roots and felt my parents pride .
The men got to dance but the women were praised and sung about. To me my Mitzvah tantz was as spiritual as when I was under the chuppah. Everyone watches the kallah walk around the chosson 7 times under the chuppah and people don't consider that untznius. To me they are very similar lofty moments.
It's not about the dancing. If you understand it and have a meaningful Mitzvah tantz it is a very special moment, b'ruchnius.

rgr

Thu, May 24 2018, 4:56 pm

thunderstorm wrote:

Wow your description made me cry. Thank you for sharing

pause

Thu, May 24 2018, 5:02 pm

The idea of a mitzva tantz is for the men to be mekayem keitzad merakdim lifnei hakallah.

Everything else, the mystical and spiritual, I don't know about. And yes, it was a very emotional part of the wedding for me.

As others have said, every mitzva tantz I've been at was completely tznius. The ones I've heard about which basically turn into mixed dancing - they shouldn't be having a mitzv
a tantz. They can do it during the "dancing" of the chasunah...