Should we give ds an Upsherin?

Crayon210

Tue, Nov 13 2007, 12:16 pm

So what do you think the reason is?

amother

Tue, Nov 13 2007, 12:34 pm

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but I don't think upsherin was instituted for the reasons you mentioned. I'd even buy orlah as closer to the original reason. But chinuch? Can't be.

since you are trying to prove that this minhag is only for chassidim and doesn't belong to anyone else, don't you think its a little rude to tell the chassidim that what they believe the reason for it to be "can't be"

cassandra

Tue, Nov 13 2007, 12:43 pm

I'm just trying to be historically accurate. Perhaps this is the reason why people do it now, but I don't think this is the original reason. From the perspective of someone who keeps the minhag it doesn't really matter WHY, but I find it difficult that someone would take on a minhag that is not theirs for those reasons, when they could just as easily do something else to make the same point.

ETA: I'm not trying to be rude. Just give a 200 or 300 year old source that says that this is the reason, and I'll change my tune.

momof6

Tue, Nov 13 2007, 12:48 pm

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Yes. Many chasidic customs were considered improper or halachically invalid when the movement started.

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We've come 200 yrs. past then. I hope most ppl have accepted Chassidim as part of mainstream Orthodoxy. Do you still believe Chassidic customs areI believe upsherin was "pagan or Muslim in origin."???????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This whole thing is indicative of a larger problem, which is that many frum Jews tend to look at Chasidic customs in terms of religious upward mobility, whereas the reality is that it is just a difference in minhag (NOT CHUMRA!), and since chasidim way back when changed the established minhag once cannot decide to take on those minhagim just because.

I live in a YU-MO community (which is naturally shifting toward the right) where upsherins are becoming much more popular. I believe this trend is coming for the most part out of ignorance and a desire to be "frum", which is sad and funny.

Sad? That ppl are going from YU / MO to Chassidish?[/quote]

Last edited by momof6 on Tue, Nov 13 2007, 12:49 pm; edited 1 time in total

gryp

Tue, Nov 13 2007, 12:48 pm

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And how many litvaks were keeping it in those days? Not many.

I don't know. I'll bet it was more common in EY though.

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It is a chicken and egg problem. We do this all the time-- ascribe reasonings to practices to make them more meaningful, even if this was not the original reason. Over time people may believe this is the original reason, but I don't think upsherin was instituted for the reasons you mentioned. I'd even buy orlah as closer to the original reason. But chinuch? Can't be.

As I said, the info I brought is in Sefer Haminhagim of Chabad. The book does not tell fairy-tales.

MrsLeo

Tue, Nov 13 2007, 12:58 pm

My parents are BT, from Russian and I think Ukraine before that and they follow their rav's way of doing things so all my 4 brothers had upsherin at 3 yr old.

cassandra

Tue, Nov 13 2007, 12:59 pm

momof6 wrote:

Sad? That ppl are going from YU / MO to Chassidish?

Yes I do. Obviously its better than going off the derech, but why do people think that being chasidish is a more valid mode of practice? Chasidim do things that my poskim would find halachicly questionable. It is not just a matter of being more machmir.

Crayon210

Tue, Nov 13 2007, 1:00 pm

I'm glad becoming chassidish is better than "going off the derech". Rolling Eyes

cassandra

Tue, Nov 13 2007, 1:02 pm

And it is the superior attitude by many chasidim that contributes to this problem.

Crayon210

Tue, Nov 13 2007, 1:04 pm

People think we're superior because we act superior? Hmm.

cassandra

Tue, Nov 13 2007, 1:11 pm

I'm not quite sure what you mean.

Crayon210

Tue, Nov 13 2007, 1:12 pm

I'm not either. I think that your posts on this subject have ranged from ignorant to silly to completely out of line.

cassandra

Tue, Nov 13 2007, 1:14 pm

Can you substantiate this?

Crayon210

Tue, Nov 13 2007, 1:38 pm

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I think it is a vanity thing for some mothers.

This is extremely rude.

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since chasidim way back when changed the established minhag once cannot decide to take on those minhagim just because.

Compare this with:

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Yes, and chasidim adopted many kabbalistic minhagim.

Huh?

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I believe this trend is coming for the most part out of ignorance and a desire to be "frum", which is sad and funny.

Yes, thousands of people have done this in ignorance, no rabbonim have come out against it. Do you think the rabbonim are stupid?

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And while it may be a nice thing when you do it from a chinuch perspective, I can't imagine the effects are so long-lasting, or that they cannot be acheived in other ways.

So there's a minhag to do something for chinuch. You're suggesting that while it's a nice idea to do a chinuch-oriented minhag, it's probably not long-lasting (nice thing to say about a minhag whose basis is chinuch), and on top of that, you're suggesting that it should be achieved in some other way. You'd rather people be MECHADESH minhagim rather than take on chassidishe ones. Does this make sense?

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The answer is that these reasons came after the fact-- they are not the reason why it is done in the first place.

How do you know this?

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Certainly not one that the Gra was against. (if you are litvish)

A source for this would be good.

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Plus, people love any excuse to make a party.

Another rude comment, in line with the vain mothers.

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Again, its nice and cute, but I do not believe this is why the Ari had this minhag, or why chasidim adopted it.

Nice and cute? What a wonderful thing to say about an established minhag. Oh, right. Chassidim aren't established, their minhagim were made up. Rolling Eyes

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I'm not sure. I'd love my dh to bentch my kids friday night, but since he has no minhag to do so he won't. Changing your minhag is a serious thing.

There's a difference between changing a minhag (I.e., I'd like to wait 3 hours instead of six between meat and milk, or I'd like to daven Nusach Ashkenaz instead of Nusach Sefard) and adopting one. People adopt minhagim all the time. Giving a bracha on Friday night is a beautiful minhag and there's nothing wrong with adopting it. Do people have a minhag NOT to give a bracha? (Not-do people not have a minhag. But do they actively have a mesorah not to give brachos? I doubt it. But in that case, fine.)

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So then why do they do it? If it is about doing a nice thing for your son and for chinuch, why not adopt the yekke minhag of wimpel as someone mentioned?

Because, to be honest, no one knows what a wimpel is. LOL

All kidding aside, why would I look for an obscure minhag (to most people, a wimpel is pretty obscure) instead of one that my neighbors and friends all do?

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I still can't believe you said it's better to become chassidish than go off the derech.

No one said that being chassidish is more valid. Just that taking on an additional minhag that does not conflict with your own is valid. Your unsourced statement from the Gra does not constitute a minhag not to do an upsherenish. Even if you find a source, not everyone who is Litvish (or non-chassidish) does everything the way the Gra did.

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And it is the superior attitude by many chasidim that contributes to this problem.

And this is where we finished off. Now it sounds like if people give their kid an upsherenish, they're wannabe superior chassidim.

Please.

amother

Tue, Nov 13 2007, 1:48 pm

cassandra wrote:

momof6 wrote:

Sad? That ppl are going from YU / MO to Chassidish?

I totally agree. And I"m chassidish.

cassandra

Tue, Nov 13 2007, 1:55 pm

Thanks for taking the time to respond.

Crayon210 wrote:

This is extremely rude.

So you think Kate Hudson did it because she cares about the chinuch of her son and his observance of the mitvah of peyos? Context, please.

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since chasidim way back when changed the established minhag once cannot decide to take on those minhagim just because.

Compare this with:

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Yes, and chasidim adopted many kabbalistic minhagim.

Huh?

Some were kabbalistic minhagim. Others (such as ignoring zman tefila) were not.

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Yes, thousands of people have done this in ignorance, no rabbonim have come out against it. Do you think the rabbonim are stupid?

The Gra was against it as we said, as was the Brisker Rav and the Steipler. And no, they aren't stupid.

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IF IT ISN"T YOUR MINHAG. Then yes, why not be mechadesh something?

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How do you know this?

Because that isn't how people thought 500 years ago. Especially not the Ari who viewed things on a completely different plane. It just doesn't add up.

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A source would be good

I cited one of three seforim it would be in, I can't remember which at the moment but I'll get back to you.

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Another rude comment, in line with the vain mothers.

You have a very high opinion of all women. Many women I know live to make parties.

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Nice and cute? What a wonderful thing to say about an established minhag. Oh, right. Chassidim aren't established, their minhagim were made up. Rolling Eyes

Do you seriously believe that the minhagim of Chasidim originated with Moshe Rabeinu or Sanhedrin!?!!?

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Do people have a minhag NOT to give a bracha? (Not-do people not have a minhag. But do they actively have a mesorah not to give brachos? I doubt it. But in that case, fine.)

I'm not sure about this, but this was exactly my point with upsherin-- ther is a minhag to NOT do it.

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So then why do they do it? If it is about doing a nice thing for your son and for chinuch, why not adopt the yekke minhag of wimpel as someone mentioned?

Because, to be honest, no one knows what a wimpel is. LOL

All kidding aside, why would I look for an obscure minhag (to most people, a wimpel is pretty obscure) instead of one that my neighbors and friends all do?

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Actually, being Litvish is by definition doing what the Gra did (I'm not talking about those who came from Poland but still call themselves Litvish) And my comment was in response to the poster who DID imply that it is better to be chasidish than to follow a YU mehalech, which I find offensive. I assume you are Lubavitch. How would you feel if one of your children moved to my community and followed my lifestyle?

Would you feel better if I said it is MUCH better to become Chasidish than go off the derech?

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And this is where we finished off. Now it sounds like if people give their kid an upsherenish, they're wannabe superior chassidim.

Please.

I stand by this.

cassandra

Tue, Nov 13 2007, 1:57 pm

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Because, to be honest, no one knows what a wimpel is. LOL

All kidding aside, why would I look for an obscure minhag (to most people, a wimpel is pretty obscure) instead of one that my neighbors and friends all do?

But all of MY neighbors and friends never did it, but its starting, and I wonder why.

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And this is where we finished off. Now it sounds like if people give their kid an upsherenish, they're wannabe superior chassidim.

Please.

I stand by this. Obviously it is not the whole story, but deep down I do believe that this is what is going on.

Last edited by cassandra on Tue, Nov 13 2007, 2:03 pm; edited 1 time in total

red sea

Tue, Nov 13 2007, 2:01 pm

amother wrote:

cassandra wrote:

momof6 wrote:

Sad? That ppl are going from YU / MO to Chassidish?

I totally agree. And I"m chassidish.

I also agree, we are supposed to hold by our own traditions, not switch around by choice. If pple are switching to chassidish ways because outwardly it appears "frummer", its sad that they dont understand that its not only outward and it is not only about chumros, its only funny in a sad way, I find it rather disturbing. Each way has its own mesorah that is supposed to be followed, not tossed cuz the other seems more this or that. Within each mesorah there is room for being extremely frum and pious. There are differences in halachic rulings which are not chumros and not even minhagim, that I don't think are supposed to be switched about lightly.

Crayon210

Tue, Nov 13 2007, 2:14 pm

cassandra wrote:

Crayon210 wrote:

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I think it is a vanity thing for some mothers

This is extremely rude.

So you think Kate Hudson did it because she cares about the chinuch of her son and his observance of the mitvah of peyos? Context, please.

"Some mothers"-Kate Hudson is not "some mothers". She's one celebrity mother. It is insulting to all the other mothers who took on this minhag. (Also, I think it's nice if someone who has very little to do with Yiddishkeit takes on a minhag, any minhag.)

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since chasidim way back when changed the established minhag once cannot decide to take on those minhagim just because.

Compare this with:

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Yes, and chasidim adopted many kabbalistic minhagim.

Huh?

Some were kabbalistic minhagim. Others (such as ignoring zman tefila) were not.[/quote]

BINGO!!!

Ignoring zman tefilla?

Yup, that's what we do.

We wake up late (because we're all hung over), and then we stumble over to shul, turn a few cartwheels, and daven at 4 in the afternoon.

Hisnagdus at its best. (Worst?)

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Yes, thousands of people have done this in ignorance, no rabbonim have come out against it. Do you think the rabbonim are stupid?

The Gra was against it as we said, as was the Brisker Rav and the Steipler. And no, they aren't stupid.

Sources for the Brisker Rav and the Steipler as well, please.

This is fascinating. If this is true, it speaks VOLUMES about their so-called followers.

Or, it's not true.

Don't you think someone other than yourself would have brought the opinions of these gedolim to the attention of all the misguided people who took on this minhag?

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IF IT ISN"T YOUR MINHAG. Then yes, why not be mechadesh something?

I hope you realize how silly this sounds. Better to make up a new minhag rather than adopt someone else's?

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How do you know this?

Because that isn't how people thought 500 years ago. Especially not the Ari who viewed things on a completely different plane. It just doesn't add up.

I don't mean to pry, but how do you know about how people thought 500 years ago?

And how much of the Ari's writings have you read?

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Another rude comment, in line with the vain mothers.

You have a very high opinion of all women. Many women I know live to make parties.

Yes, I would like to think that fine yiddishe mamas have better things to do with their time than make parties.

Also, it's much easier to make a three-year-old birthday party rather than deal with all that hair. Rolling Eyes

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Nice and cute? What a wonderful thing to say about an established minhag. Oh, right. Chassidim aren't established, their minhagim were made up. Rolling Eyes

Do you seriously believe that the minhagim of Chasidim originated with Moshe Rabeinu or Sanhedrin!?!!?

Do you believe that of Litvish minhagim?

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Do people have a minhag NOT to give a bracha? (Not-do people not have a minhag. But do they actively have a mesorah not to give brachos? I doubt it. But in that case, fine.)

I'm not sure about this, but this was exactly my point with upsherin-- ther is a minhag to NOT do it.

And you seem to be the only person who has heard of this.

And what does that mean? That people have a minhag to davka cut the hair at any point before 3? What if a child doesn't need a haircut before then?

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So you are talking about a very specific group of people who are called "Litvish".

How do you know if all those YU people are descended from those specific Litvaks? Nice way to be dan l'kaf zechus. You'd rather think that everyone is vain and wants to make parties.

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Would you feel better if I said it is MUCH better to become Chasidish than go off the derech?

No. I think it was a silly thing to say at all.

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And this is where we finished off. Now it sounds like if people give their kid an upsherenish, they're wannabe superior chassidim.

Please.

I stand by this. Obviously it is not the whole story, but deep down I do believe that this is what is going on.

So is there a problem if someone does want to become chassidish? I don't understand what the "problem" is. And I think you're wrong. I think that sometimes a cigar is just a cigar: and when those mommies wait until 3 to cut their sons' hair, it's just because it's a beautiful minhag.

Last edited by Crayon210 on Tue, Nov 13 2007, 9:00 pm; edited 1 time in total

cassandra

Tue, Nov 13 2007, 2:19 pm

Oh, and just so you can't call me a liar:

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The Steipler Gaon, Rav Yaakov Yisroel Kanievsky z"l, also refused to go along with it. It is told (in sefer 'orchos Rabbeinu', by his talmid Rav Avrohom Horowitz, volume one, p.233) that he would drive away ( ! ) people who came to him with three year old boys asking him to cut their hair and was very angry about it ( ! ).

Last edited by cassandra on Wed, Nov 14 2007, 6:42 am; edited 2 times in total