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Holocaust survivors' relatives and the immigration crisis
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amother




Crimson


Post  Wed, Jun 20 2018, 1:10 am
Should we, being that many of us are Holocaust survivors' descendants, who are aware of Jews during the Holocaust who tried to flee persecution, some successfully, some not successfully, have MUCH MORE of a heart than most, and be MUCH MORE outspoken than most, about the immigration crisis?

What can the average citizen do?
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amother




Crimson


Post  Wed, Jun 20 2018, 7:20 am

Picture resized
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Jeanette









  


Post  Wed, Jun 20 2018, 7:25 am
when you've even lost Hamodia...
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Ruchel









  


Post  Wed, Jun 20 2018, 9:26 am
NO. We are humans. We don't need to do more because our families suffered. We should all be good people. But just because my family suffered I have to work harder? No way.
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Mommyg8









  


Post  Wed, Jun 20 2018, 9:29 am
amother wrote:
Should we, being that many of us are Holocaust survivors' descendants, who are aware of Jews during the Holocaust who tried to flee persecution, some successfully, some not successfully, have MUCH MORE of a heart than most, and be MUCH MORE outspoken than most, about the immigration crisis?

What can the average citizen do?


I'm still trying to understand what relevance the Holocaust has to the current immigration situation. I'm very sad that there are so many people who use hyperbole to make their point, it just cheapens the pain of the real Holocaust victims.
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isrmss91









  


Post  Wed, Jun 20 2018, 11:14 am
You know what the difference is? When our grandparents came, they weren't given anything! My Grandfather arrived in this country with $8.00 to his name. they had to have people sponsor them by someone, that they would not become a burden to society. No freebies in those days.
Here, they will be getting free medical care, education, food stamps...
And this means that if those kids do get placed in American Society, then the citizens end up having to pay additonal taxes to fund them. America is a very caring country. we send aid, when there are natural disasters. It's not that we don't want to help, but there are billion of people who want to come to America. There people in other countries who want to immigrate, but are doing it through LEGAL channels. Is it fair that these line jumpers be rewarded?? Where do we we draw the line?? The US does not have infinite cash reserves.
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amother




Crimson


Post  Wed, Jun 20 2018, 11:19 am
Mommyg8 wrote:
I'm still trying to understand what relevance the Holocaust has to the current immigration situation. I'm very sad that there are so many people who use hyperbole to make their point, it just cheapens the pain of the real Holocaust victims.


OP here.

We can debate the validity of my point forever and ever, but similarly, cancer survivors are more able to sympathize with cancer patients and are asked to encourage and be involved, and near fatal auto accident survivors are often asked to encourage and be involved with serious accident victims.

To experience and live something, or having very close relatives experience and live something, generally affects greater understanding/compassion.
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amother




Lilac


Post  Wed, Jun 20 2018, 11:24 am
I feel sad that so many human beings live in abject misery. It's terrible, especially for the children. Unfortunately, billions of people live in violent, impovershed places. The answer cannot be to relocate everyone. The president wasn't wrong when he called then blank-hole countries, many of these places are blank-holes. We can take more legal immigrants, and simplify the system. We can be more compassionate to the illegal immigrants by not taking their children away when they show up. But no, we can't just let in everyone who wants to come. And if you come here illegally and try to cut the line, you should be turned away and told to get in line. Countries have the right to have borders and not everyone who wants to come gets to. It's not fair. I wish we could take in every person who's trying to escape violence and poverty but that's just not realistic. Life's not fair. We could do more to help developing countries take care of their own so that people don't need to migrate. That comes with its own set of issues, though. We've messed up plenty of countries we've interfered with. No easy answers unfortunately.

Regarding Holocaust: I'm a grandchild of survivors. They tried to immigrate legally to a bunch of places, including the US, and were denied. Eventually they found one place that had much more lax rules and that is where they went and stayed till the end of the war. After which they immigrated LEGALLY to the US, two years after the end of the war (so it wasn't such a quick process either). Of course I feel for people running for their lives. I wouldn't be opposed to opening up more legal pathways. But no one has the right to just walk into another country and stay. That's not fair to that country.
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leah233









  


Post  Wed, Jun 20 2018, 11:25 am
My great-grandparents were all were either murdered in the holocaust or escaped to the US after much of their family was killed in Russian pogroms. That knowledge indeed prevents me from being too opposed to immigration .

But there remains two crucial differences between them and many of the current immigrants (1)They clearly wanted to be here to save their lives (2) They did not ask the US government for any type of financial support or other privileges and accommodations once they got here.


Last edited by leah233 on Wed, Jun 20 2018, 11:29 am; edited 2 times in total
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moonstone









  


Post  Wed, Jun 20 2018, 11:28 am
Mommyg8 wrote:
I'm still trying to understand what relevance the Holocaust has to the current immigration situation. I'm very sad that there are so many people who use hyperbole to make their point, it just cheapens the pain of the real Holocaust victims.


You're absolutely right. I don't know why people keep comparing this situation to the Holocaust, and I really wish they'd stop.
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amother




Aqua


Post  Wed, Jun 20 2018, 11:31 am
amother wrote:
OP here.

We can debate the validity of my point forever and ever, but similarly, cancer survivors are more able to sympathize with cancer patients and are asked to encourage and be involved, and near fatal auto accident survivors are often asked to encourage and be involved with serious accident victims.

To experience and live something, or having very close relatives experience and live something, generally affects greater understanding/compassion.

I don't understand the comparison. Are you saying that because Jews were persecuted and killed by their govt, aka the Nazi party, then we should have compassion for illegal aliens from Central America who are not being persecuted or killed by their govt? Or are you saying illegal aliens being killed by their own govt? in which case, the notion that they are escaping gangs and violence (both of which are prevalent in the U.S. as well) would be a false narrative and certainly should be investigated further to see what the truth really is.
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amother




Crimson


Post  Wed, Jun 20 2018, 11:33 am
leah233 wrote:
My great-grandparents were all were either murdered in the holocaust or escaped to the US after much of their family was killed in Russian pogroms. That knowledge indeed prevents me from being too opposed to immigration .

But there remains two crucial differences between them and many of the current immigrants (1)They clearly wanted to be here to save their lives (2) They did not ask the US government for any type of financial support or other privileges and accommodations once they got here.


Would it be doable to stipulate that immigrants granted entry, should not be eligible for any social programs after 6 months, or so?

Also perhaps the availability of a multitude of social programs for citizens of the US, that became a lifestyle for a great percentage here of all races and religions, including ours, and is b a n k r u p t I n g our country, more than it already is, is a problem that has to be fixed immediately.


Is the fact that the US is insanely over generous with social programs, money-wise, and duration-wise, the immigrants' fault?
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amother




Orchid


Post  Wed, Jun 20 2018, 11:42 am
In order to immigrate to the country where I live someone had to sponsor me and I had to prove that I could support myself so that I wouldn’t rely on government help.

People that come here in fear of their lives should be allowed to settle in while waiting for the legal channels to be processed but should be told that they need to support themselves without government help. I would think being granted asylum would be a big enough gift that they would be grateful and not even ask for more help.
Those who are sincere will work hard and be grateful.
Those who come here in order to live off the system and to enjoy the benefits should not be allowed to stay.

The profile of an immigrant is a hard worker grateful to be here.
If someone is anything else then we don’t need to let them be here just to mooch off us.
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southernbubby









  


Post  Wed, Jun 20 2018, 12:48 pm
https://theconversation.com/fo.....eads-98600

https://www.wsj.com/articles/m.....1529376939


These articles talk about what leads people to trek over 2000 miles on foot and by bus, orchestrated by corrupt smugglers who mislead the desperate people into believing that a better life awaits them in America. They are basically fleeing violence, poverty, and corruption.

Because even poor Americans don't want to do certain difficult jobs, the illegals do this for a fraction of the cost that would be paid to a legal citizen if they were to agree to do the work. It is hard to calculate what % of their work would be filled by paid workers and what this would cost Americans who are used to eating cheap food picked by illegal migrant labor.
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leah233









  


Post  Wed, Jun 20 2018, 1:05 pm
southernbubby wrote:




Because even poor Americans don't want to do certain difficult jobs, the illegals do this for a fraction of the cost that would be paid to a legal citizen if they were to agree to do the work. It is hard to calculate what % of their work would be filled by paid workers and what this would cost Americans who are used to eating cheap food picked by illegal migrant labor.


How are the supporting their families if they are being paid a fraction of what a legal citizen would charge?

Presumably they aren't doing it for below minimum wage. Are the unemployed legal citizens really so picky about work? Would they continue to be if there were no government programs supporting them?

Yes I'm willing to have my food prices go up if their current costs are because of exploited workers.

Given the general overhead of food production and distribution better paid farm laborers wouldn't make such a difference in the cost of food
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southernbubby









  


Post  Wed, Jun 20 2018, 1:21 pm
leah233 wrote:
How are the supporting their families if they are being paid a fraction of what a legal citizen would charge?

Presumably they aren't doing it for below minimum wage. Are the unemployed legal citizens really so picky about work? Would they continue to be if there were no government programs supporting them?

Yes I'm willing to have my food prices go up if their current costs are because of exploited workers.

Given the general overhead of food production and distribution better paid farm laborers wouldn't make such a difference in the cost of food


Migrant workers are never staying long in one place and are living in very inadequate facilities when they go to an area to work. Most citizens cannot live and raise their children that way because it is impossible to attend a different school in a different location every few weeks.

While many of us could absorb higher food costs, many cannot.
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amother




Crimson


Post  Wed, Jun 20 2018, 4:02 pm
Update/ It seems Trump signed an order to halt family separation.
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zohar









  


Post  Wed, Jun 20 2018, 9:36 pm
I feel really bad for the plight of these children, but there really are no easy answers. Separating children and parents is horrible. Having kids in detention centers with their parents is horrible. Letting unvetted people into the general public knowing they will disappear on you and incentivising people to pour over the border with children who may or may not be their own, exasperating the human trafficking problem, is even more horrible.
But as a grandchild of survivors, the Holocaust analagies infuriates me. It's white washing the Holocaust. And for accuracy's sake, the Nazi's actually had a policy of not separating mothers and children at the death camps inorder to prevent panic sending the young healthy mothers to their deaths with their children, Hashem Yinkom Damam.
I do think that senator Cruz's proposed law, while not perfect, because nothing can be in such situations, is very reasonable.
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aleph









  


Post  Thu, Jun 21 2018, 12:33 am
I thought of this analogy too, not in the sense of comparison to the holocaust per se, but in the sense of any group of people fleeing wartime or war-like situations of persecution.

The holocaust is the most egregious, and obviously personally felt, example of such.

But when I think of the myriad of desperate attempts at escape and entry to other countries, legal or otherwise, that were necessary and justified during that time, I realize that desperation is something that cannot be related to, unless you are in it.

Obviously not all illegal immigrants attempting to enter our country at this point in time are in such dire straights, but many certainly are.... How can we judge, or measure, someone else's desperation?
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zohar









  


Post  Thu, Jun 21 2018, 12:49 am
aleph wrote:
I thought of this analogy too, not in the sense of comparison to the holocaust per se, but in the sense of any group of people fleeing wartime or war-like situations of persecution.

The holocaust is the most egregious, and obviously personally felt, example of such.

But when I think of the myriad of desperate attempts at escape and entry to other countries, legal or otherwise, that were necessary and justified during that time, I realize that desperation is something that cannot be related to, unless you are in it.

Obviously not all illegal immigrants attempting to enter our country at this point in time are in such dire straights, but many certainly are.... How can we judge, or measure, someone else's desperation?


People and media invoking the Holocaust are not talking about the desperation of these parents. I agree with you on that account and that's why I don't buy into the "parents are evil by bringing their children over and risking separation" argument. I think the parents are taking a calculated risk, weighing the pros and cons etc. What this thread is referring to is the comparison of kids being separated from their parents to Nazi Germany, and that's ridiculous.
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