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amother
Taupe
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 Thu, Jun 21 2018, 10:56 am
Hi fellow Bais Kaila mothers, two questions... Incoming ninth grader, would like to help her learn about budgeting money she earns this summer and begin planning my own budget for next year, so:
1. Besides tuition of course, what expenses can I expect during the school year...like G.O. fees, trips, school Shabbos, etc?
2. What extras did you teach your daughter are her responsibility to pay for vs extra curricular stuff that you cover?
This will help me a lot! Thank you!
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Chayalle
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Thu, Jun 21 2018, 11:04 am
I don't remember how much the G.O. fee was. School Shabbos was $160. There were some extra trips here and there, that she needed a bit more for. I would guess budged for around $250 and you'll be covered.
I pay for all school related activities for my daughters. It's my personal Hashkafa that this is included in their chinuch, we want them to participate in school activities, and we pay for them.
If she wants to order Bagel Nosh for lunch or go out for pizza with friends, that's her responsibility to pay for.
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amother
Taupe
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Thu, Jun 21 2018, 11:21 am
| Chayalle wrote: | I don't remember how much the G.O. fee was. School Shabbos was $160. There were some extra trips here and there, that she needed a bit more for. I would guess budged for around $250 and you'll be covered.
I pay for all school related activities for my daughters. It's my personal Hashkafa that this is included in their chinuch, we want them to participate in school activities, and we pay for them.
If she wants to order Bagel Nosh for lunch or go out for pizza with friends, that's her responsibility to pay for. |
Thanks Chayalle, that was really helpful. (I was hoping you would answer!). I agree with what you ask your girls to pay for, and if you have time, I have another question:
My daughter is now earning a significant amount of money this summer. I would like her to pay for some of her expenses, because I find that a lot of her friends have a spoiled mentality that I constantly discuss with her in regard to our values - for example, her friends have a lot of expectations from their parents for sleep away camp tuition and all its expenses, for all their never ending clothing desires, for lots of lessons, and all their fun with friends. Her friends are not thankful or polite about their extras, there is a strong sense of entitlement which spills into my daughter, who we raised carefully to be grateful for small things. You sound like you are trying, like me, to raise a happy daughter with out an entitled attitude. From this list, how do you decide what is your responsibility as a parent, and what is your daughter's responsibility? Thank you if you have time to answer.
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debsey
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Thu, Jun 21 2018, 3:40 pm
| Chayalle wrote: | I don't remember how much the G.O. fee was. School Shabbos was $160. There were some extra trips here and there, that she needed a bit more for. I would guess budged for around $250 and you'll be covered.
I pay for all school related activities for my daughters. It's my personal Hashkafa that this is included in their chinuch, we want them to participate in school activities, and we pay for them.
If she wants to order Bagel Nosh for lunch or go out for pizza with friends, that's her responsibility to pay for. |
I agree with Chayalle. It isn't fair to ask a child to pay for things that are not "extras" - school shabbos, for example, is part of the curriculum and generally mandatory. I wouldn't want my child to think of her budget and miss it!
My approach is to decide on a budget together with my children. Anything they want (clothes, lessons, music downloads) that is more than that budget comes out of their own money.
That's not to say that I won't spring for an "extra" here or there, especially when a child has been exceptionally helpful or diligent in school. But I'm all for going "halvsies" on a purchase. For example, when my (now adult) daughter was in 8th grade, a certain schoolbag was all the rage. I was willing to pay 40.00 towards it. She had money from some mothers helping she did, but was still short. So I found chores around the house (for example, making a huge pot of meatballs so that I'd have a supper to pull out of the freezer on a busy day) and assigned monetary values to them. Once she earned the money, she was able to buy that schoolbag. This way, she got the schoolbag she wanted, but also learned the value of money. Today, she is a young adult, and she is not at all profligate with her salary. She also, of her own initiative, earned all of her spending money for seminary. I didn't even have to ask her to. She's been home over a year, and she always says that she feels she got more out of seminary than girls who never had to budget and spent their year taking taxis and buying ice coffees. There's nothing wrong with walking to the kosel and drinking water, saving the treats for once in a while.
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Chayalle
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Thu, Jun 21 2018, 3:57 pm
My approach is similar to Debsey's.
I do have an approach, with my girls, that I really want them to save for the future. I open a bank account with them when they are young, and most of what they earn from summer jobs, etc..goes to savings.
So in terms of clothes, I buy my girls what they need - x number of Shabbos outfits, tees, skirts, one or two nicer weekday, basic shoes for weekday and Shabbos, sneakers, swim, etc......and we don't have an attitude of constant shopping if we don't need it. If they want extra stuff on top of that its on them, but I don't encourage lots of splurge-spending.
At the same time, I do recognize that teens need to spend here and there on extras, and it's actually healthy to learn to budget and prioritize your money by spending on things you want, on occasion. For example, DD wanted a certain watch and she bought it with her own money. When she wanted Ugg boots, I went 50/50 with her (maybe I did more than 50/50, actually) but basically I spent what I would've for boots and she added so that she got the ones she wanted. Ditto for school bags, etc....It's tricky to get the balance with teens - it's healthy to spend some, and it's imperative to learn to save.
My oldest is the type that WANTs to do her own thing most of the time - like it wouldn't dawn on her that I should pay for her time out with friends, and her buying things that are extras. At the same time, she is also budgeting and not spending lots on extras, but rather, for the here and there socializing/recreational items and time with friends.
Re: sleepaway camp - my girls went to Camp Bais Yaakov, which is somewhat cheaper than some other camps, and they also gave me a Kollel discount. I paid the basic camp cost, but my girls always earned their own spending money for camp, and they paid the trip fee (CBY has a separate fee for trips). It usually cost them less than half of what they earned working the other half of the summer, (not including extra money they always earned babysitting, etc...) and the rest went to savings. I found that in this way, they didn't just take for granted that their parents shell out large sums of $$ with no contribution of their own.
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amother
Taupe
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Thu, Jun 21 2018, 4:10 pm
| Chayalle wrote: | My approach is similar to Debsey's.
I do have an approach, with my girls, that I really want them to save for the future. I open a bank account with them when they are young, and most of what they earn from summer jobs, etc..goes to savings.
So in terms of clothes, I buy my girls what they need - x number of Shabbos outfits, tees, skirts, one or two nicer weekday, basic shoes for weekday and Shabbos, sneakers, swim, etc......and we don't have an attitude of constant shopping if we don't need it. If they want extra stuff on top of that its on them, but I don't encourage lots of splurge-spending.
At the same time, I do recognize that teens need to spend here and there on extras, and it's actually healthy to learn to budget and prioritize your money by spending on things you want, on occasion. For example, DD wanted a certain watch and she bought it with her own money. When she wanted Ugg boots, I went 50/50 with her (maybe I did more than 50/50, actually) but basically I spent what I would've for boots and she added so that she got the ones she wanted. Ditto for school bags, etc....It's tricky to get the balance with teens - it's healthy to spend some, and it's imperative to learn to save.
My oldest is the type that WANTs to do her own thing most of the time - like it wouldn't dawn on her that I should pay for her time out with friends, and her buying things that are extras. At the same time, she is also budgeting and not spending lots on extras, but rather, for the here and there socializing/recreational items and time with friends.
Re: sleepaway camp - my girls went to Camp Bais Yaakov, which is somewhat cheaper than some other camps, and they also gave me a Kollel discount. I paid the basic camp cost, but my girls always earned their own spending money for camp, and they paid the trip fee (CBY has a separate fee for trips). It usually cost them less than half of what they earned working the other half of the summer, (not including extra money they always earned babysitting, etc...) and the rest went to savings. I found that in this way, they didn't just take for granted that their parents shell out large sums of $$ with no contribution of their own. |
Thank you, that sleep away camp advice was really good and very helpful.
Another question - I know your husband learns and you earn the bulk of parnassah, do you make the family budget? In my marriage, my husband earns the parnassah and does much of the budgeting, and although I certainly have input, his style is not so neat and perfect as you and Debsey describe your budgeting style - x allotted yearly for clothes, x allotted yearly for camp, etc. There's a basic budget, but because his field does not have a specific expected earning per month or year, his approach has a lot more fluidity, so it is much harder for me to tell my daughter logical things like, "here is your clothing budget for the year, anything extra should come from your personal clothing budget.". I definitely think that's the healthiest way to work with teens, but I feel a little out of control....maybe I should start another thread to address this with husband's with similar budgeting to mine?
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amother
Taupe
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Thu, Jun 21 2018, 4:10 pm
| Chayalle wrote: | My approach is similar to Debsey's.
I do have an approach, with my girls, that I really want them to save for the future. I open a bank account with them when they are young, and most of what they earn from summer jobs, etc..goes to savings.
So in terms of clothes, I buy my girls what they need - x number of Shabbos outfits, tees, skirts, one or two nicer weekday, basic shoes for weekday and Shabbos, sneakers, swim, etc......and we don't have an attitude of constant shopping if we don't need it. If they want extra stuff on top of that its on them, but I don't encourage lots of splurge-spending.
At the same time, I do recognize that teens need to spend here and there on extras, and it's actually healthy to learn to budget and prioritize your money by spending on things you want, on occasion. For example, DD wanted a certain watch and she bought it with her own money. When she wanted Ugg boots, I went 50/50 with her (maybe I did more than 50/50, actually) but basically I spent what I would've for boots and she added so that she got the ones she wanted. Ditto for school bags, etc....It's tricky to get the balance with teens - it's healthy to spend some, and it's imperative to learn to save.
My oldest is the type that WANTs to do her own thing most of the time - like it wouldn't dawn on her that I should pay for her time out with friends, and her buying things that are extras. At the same time, she is also budgeting and not spending lots on extras, but rather, for the here and there socializing/recreational items and time with friends.
Re: sleepaway camp - my girls went to Camp Bais Yaakov, which is somewhat cheaper than some other camps, and they also gave me a Kollel discount. I paid the basic camp cost, but my girls always earned their own spending money for camp, and they paid the trip fee (CBY has a separate fee for trips). It usually cost them less than half of what they earned working the other half of the summer, (not including extra money they always earned babysitting, etc...) and the rest went to savings. I found that in this way, they didn't just take for granted that their parents shell out large sums of $$ with no contribution of their own. |
Thank you, that sleep away camp advice was really good and very helpful.
Another question - I know your husband learns and you earn the bulk of parnassah, do you make the family budget? In my marriage, my husband earns the parnassah and does much of the budgeting, and although I certainly have input, his style is not so neat and perfect as you and Debsey describe your budgeting style - x allotted yearly for clothes, x allotted yearly for camp, etc. There's a basic budget, but because his field does not have a specific expected earning per month or year, his approach has a lot more fluidity, so it is much harder for me to tell my daughter logical things like, "here is your clothing budget for the year, anything extra should come from your personal clothing budget.". I definitely think that's the healthiest way to work with teens, but I feel a little out of control....maybe I should start another thread to address this with husband's with similar budgeting to mine?
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Chayalle
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Fri, Jun 22 2018, 12:09 pm
| amother wrote: | Thank you, that sleep away camp advice was really good and very helpful.
Another question - I know your husband learns and you earn the bulk of parnassah, do you make the family budget? In my marriage, my husband earns the parnassah and does much of the budgeting, and although I certainly have input, his style is not so neat and perfect as you and Debsey describe your budgeting style - x allotted yearly for clothes, x allotted yearly for camp, etc. There's a basic budget, but because his field does not have a specific expected earning per month or year, his approach has a lot more fluidity, so it is much harder for me to tell my daughter logical things like, "here is your clothing budget for the year, anything extra should come from your personal clothing budget.". I definitely think that's the healthiest way to work with teens, but I feel a little out of control....maybe I should start another thread to address this with husband's with similar budgeting to mine? |
I wish my budget was so set, the truth is it ends up being more about what's available and somewhat reasonable, what we need now and what we can put off....like, one year we found DD a Shabbos dress in Macy's for $35, but that's like a one time find.
It's more like sometime before Pesach and Succos, we go thru our closets, and we do try-ons, and we make lists of what each kid needs. X number of outfits, a robe if last year's doesn't fit or is worn out, shoes and sneakers - condition, and what they need new, what's too small, etc...where applicable, what hand-me-downs I might have that can serve, and what should get discarded.
then we start with the shopping, and see what we can find, and at what price. We may put off certain expenses (like new sneakers might be able to wait a month or two, or, DD is going to camp 2nd half so we can wait for some summer sales to stock up on camp needs...)
Some items, we decide if they are necessary or just wanted. Like for example, DD wanted a swim cover-up. Technically it's a want item because she could wear a slinky and tee shirt, but we found one on sale and split the cost. Alot of that might also depend on what else she needed this season. I remember one year DD inherited 4 Shabbos outfits (from big sister and cousin) that she was fine with, and didn't need any new, but I let her get a new robe and a headband (she was like 12) because she wasn't getting a new outfit.....
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debsey
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Fri, Jun 22 2018, 1:26 pm
| Chayalle wrote: | I wish my budget was so set, the truth is it ends up being more about what's available and somewhat reasonable, what we need now and what we can put off....like, one year we found DD a Shabbos dress in Macy's for $35, but that's like a one time find.
It's more like sometime before Pesach and Succos, we go thru our closets, and we do try-ons, and we make lists of what each kid needs. X number of outfits, a robe if last year's doesn't fit or is worn out, shoes and sneakers - condition, and what they need new, what's too small, etc...where applicable, what hand-me-downs I might have that can serve, and what should get discarded.
then we start with the shopping, and see what we can find, and at what price. We may put off certain expenses (like new sneakers might be able to wait a month or two, or, DD is going to camp 2nd half so we can wait for some summer sales to stock up on camp needs...)
Some items, we decide if they are necessary or just wanted. Like for example, DD wanted a swim cover-up. Technically it's a want item because she could wear a slinky and tee shirt, but we found one on sale and split the cost. Alot of that might also depend on what else she needed this season. I remember one year DD inherited 4 Shabbos outfits (from big sister and cousin) that she was fine with, and didn't need any new, but I let her get a new robe and a headband (she was like 12) because she wasn't getting a new outfit..... |
I'm similar to this too. Year to year, my budget varies. I also have a "busier" work season and a less busy work season that coincides roughly with the major shopping times. During my "busier" season, I'll spend more because more income is coming in, but also because I don't have time to bargain shop. Also, my girls tend to help more, so I'm more inclined to buy them things because I appreciate their help. But I'll definitely arrive at what sounds like a reasonable amount to spend (give or take 100.00) and then tell my girls to supplement as wished for extras.
To be honest, I used to be stricter about what is essential and what's an extra. As my older ones become adults and I have this "new family" of little kids, I do see that I'm calling more and more things essentials. Partially because many of these things are hand me downs. For example, a camp bag. If I have three to hand down, but four kids need, I'll buy the fourth one, even though when my older kids went to camp, we just used backpacks or whatever was around (unless they paid for a camp bag out of their own money).
One year, DD was desperate for an outfit from a certain crazy expensive store. She spent her entire clothing budget on it and wore it every shabbos. I did not interfere, but that sort of got the 'designer' bug out of her system. She was happy with that choice, but never made it again. (does that make sense) She sort of learned her lesson but also got something out of her system that could have been a problem had she not done that.
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amother
Royalblue
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Fri, Jun 22 2018, 3:38 pm
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I'd like to chime in with an additional perspective. As a child, I worked very hard for babysitting every night ,working summer's etc. and all my money went to the extra school expenses etc. I did save up a bit but that was used when I got married for all the things I wanted. My parents were very stingy. Today, I looked back and I feel very very resentful that my parents did that. We were not poor but we definitely were not wealthy. It was more of a mentality. I feel hurt and had to work really hard to learn how to spend on myself in a healthy way. Children to a certain extent have to be children and be given the feeling that they are taken care of. By no means does that mean to spoil them but definitely not to make them into adults before they need to. I feel that I never had a childhood; I always had to be responsible working and budgeting from when I was 10 years old in order to pay for anything extra or even not extra that I needed. I never was able to go out and buy lunch or ice cream with friends, the money was always being saved for the trip the skirt or the school Shabaton It is a certain form of emotional abuse. With my own children, I give them many more things and I had because I don't ever want them to feel this way. They are young now, but when they get older there will definitely be an opportunity for them to earn money and spend money on real extras. Many many more things and I had because I don't ever want them to feel this way. They are young now, but when they get older there will definitely be an opportunity for them to earn money and spend money on real extras. It is a very good thing that I love my job because otherwise I would feel very very burnt out if I was the sole breadwinner and my family was relying on my salary and I had to give everything away to necessities. The pay I make in the education field is negligible but I feel that I have a discretionary fun to spend on things that make me feel better about myself.
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amother
Taupe
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Fri, Jun 22 2018, 3:48 pm
[quote="amother"]I'd like to chime in with an additional perspective. As a child, I worked very hard for babysitting every night ,working summer's etc. and all my money went to the extra school expenses etc. I did save up a bit but that was used when I got married for all the things I wanted. My parents were very stingy. Today, I looked back and I feel very very resentful that my parents did that. We were not poor but we definitely were not wealthy. It was more of a mentality. I feel hurt and had to work really hard to learn how to spend on myself in a healthy way. Children to a certain extent have to be children and be given the feeling that they are taken care of. By no means does that mean to spoil them but definitely not to make them into adults before they need to. I feel that I never had a childhood; I always had to be responsible working and budgeting from when I was 10 years old in order to pay for anything extra or even not extra that I needed. I never was able to go out and buy lunch or ice cream with friends, the money was always being saved for the trip the skirt or the school Shabaton It is a certain form of emotional abuse. With my own children, I give them many more things and I had because I don't ever want them to feel this way. They are young now, but when they get older there will definitely be an opportunity for them to earn money and spend money on real extras. Many many more things and I had because I don't ever want them to feel this way. They are young now, but when they get older there will definitely be an opportunity for them to earn money and spend money on real extras. It is a very good thing that I love my job because otherwise I would feel very very burnt out if I was the sole breadwinner and my family was relying on my salary and I had to give everything away to necessities. The pay I make in the education field is negligible but I feel that I have a discretionary fun to spend on things that make me feel better about myself.[/quote
I am so sorry. That does sound like emotional abuse, big hugs to you.
Unfortunately, though, most parents tend to the opposite, they spoil and are afraid of their children, which creates unhappy, entitled, discontent adults. The middle ground can seem elusive, but we need to work on raising grateful and emotionally fulfilled kids. I'm impressed with what a great mother you are considering what you've been through!
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amother
Taupe
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Fri, Jun 22 2018, 3:48 pm
[quote="amother"]I'd like to chime in with an additional perspective. As a child, I worked very hard for babysitting every night ,working summer's etc. and all my money went to the extra school expenses etc. I did save up a bit but that was used when I got married for all the things I wanted. My parents were very stingy. Today, I looked back and I feel very very resentful that my parents did that. We were not poor but we definitely were not wealthy. It was more of a mentality. I feel hurt and had to work really hard to learn how to spend on myself in a healthy way. Children to a certain extent have to be children and be given the feeling that they are taken care of. By no means does that mean to spoil them but definitely not to make them into adults before they need to. I feel that I never had a childhood; I always had to be responsible working and budgeting from when I was 10 years old in order to pay for anything extra or even not extra that I needed. I never was able to go out and buy lunch or ice cream with friends, the money was always being saved for the trip the skirt or the school Shabaton It is a certain form of emotional abuse. With my own children, I give them many more things and I had because I don't ever want them to feel this way. They are young now, but when they get older there will definitely be an opportunity for them to earn money and spend money on real extras. Many many more things and I had because I don't ever want them to feel this way. They are young now, but when they get older there will definitely be an opportunity for them to earn money and spend money on real extras. It is a very good thing that I love my job because otherwise I would feel very very burnt out if I was the sole breadwinner and my family was relying on my salary and I had to give everything away to necessities. The pay I make in the education field is negligible but I feel that I have a discretionary fun to spend on things that make me feel better about myself.[/quote
I am so sorry. That does sound like emotional abuse, big hugs to you.
Unfortunately, though, most parents tend to the opposite, they spoil and are afraid of their children, which creates unhappy, entitled, discontent adults. The middle ground can seem elusive, but we need to work on raising grateful and emotionally fulfilled kids. I'm impressed with what a great mother you are considering what you've been through!
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