Do we owe our teens a "fun summer"?

LovesHashem

Thu, Jun 28 2018, 9:16 am

LovesHashem wrote:

Ammunition for change?! I'm not trying to make a worldwide change, I'm trying to have a sane and financial smart home, and teach my DD those things too.

I could care less about what you do with your DD. If you want to teach her you should spend money on standards even if it will put you in debt, go right ahead.

I will NOT teach such ideas to my DD.
I want her to learn responsibility, how to manage money, and how to deal with things when life doesn't give you what you want all the time. I don't want her to put herself into debt for luxuries and standards and such shtus and neither would I dream of doing that for myself!

It's beyond silly to me to drive yourself into debt for standards.
Living in a place with no standards? Why don't you just go live on a mountain? Someone will ALWAYS have more than you, be better than you, go somewhere you don't, can't or won't go to.

If your kid is used to going into debt to always have the newest bag or in thing, than yes it will hurt. But if your kid grow up getting these things something and not getting them sometimes, he will survive.

amother

Orchid

Thu, Jun 28 2018, 9:44 am

LovesHashem wrote:

I couldn't agree with you more. I could spend to the top standards in my community, but that sends the wrong message to DC. I like that my children choose to work and know the value of money. They know they will have to be able to maintain their lifestyle.

Children learn what they live. If they always see their parents chasing after what the Goldberg's have, then that's the values they pick up.

crust

Thu, Jun 28 2018, 10:18 am

LovesHashem wrote:

Yes teaching children that they dont have to have everything is top priority.

Yes teaching children that we dont spend money that we dont have is top priority.

Yes its silly to go into debt for things you don't have money for.

But there is a fifth Shilchan Aruch also.

You do understand that a 14 year old does not understand that it is so silly?

You do understand that they have different defintions for whats important?

While not raising children according to a said communitys standards is a nice ideal, you cannot be a 35 year old idealistic pioneer for change of these standards on a 14 year old childs expense.

Yes someone will always have more than you and therefore it is important to implement this ideal but *slowly*. It does not have to be done בכל תוקף ועוז

There are so many opportunities to implement this.

It doesnt have to be implemented in an area where there is such a visibly stark diference between her and her friends.

It also does not have to be implemented in an area so much potential for resentment and shame. (Yes, a 14 year old feels shame if she doesnt go to camp when ALL her friends do)

And 14 year old is fragile enough. You have to way and measure what every step in the name of "chinuch" will potentially bring about.

Sometimes it is worth to loose the battle, pay for camp but ultimately, win the child.

If you realize something is very important to your child you will come up with the money.

And yes there are lower key communities where camp or a fun summer is not a standard but my point is not that someone should move away from where they live.

My point is that you cannot make your kids very different from thier peers because it always backfires.

LovesHashem

Thu, Jun 28 2018, 10:42 am

crust wrote:

If the child really needs it, I'll find the money. But that's on an individual basis, and as a general rule I wouldn't send any of my kids. If one really needed it, I'd figure it out.

My question is, how are you affording school tuition or any other standards in your community if every single one of the 100 girls in her grade is going to sleepaway camp or abroad? Like how did you even find this school if your lifestyle is SO different?!

amother

Orchid

Thu, Jun 28 2018, 11:05 am

crust wrote:

If you are going to lose the child if you don't send them to camp something is majorly wrong with their upbringing or your crystal ball is broken. You are creating terroristic scenarios in your mind about camp.

When people have to beg and borrow to afford summer camp, it has taken on an importance that it should not have.

amother

Lemon

Thu, Jun 28 2018, 11:42 am

amother wrote:

She's fourteen, too young to work in camp, her friends are all going as campers.

I'm not sure why, because I appreciate all your responses, but this thread is making me so much more sad. Reading how you all felt when you couldnt go to camp in a big family of siblings...I feel so bad

I worked as a fourteen year old for half a summer in a camp. I babysat for the camp mother. I watched her four year old son who other babysitters had considered a monster but I had no problem keeping him in line b"H. I really enjoyed it.

amother

Mistyrose

Thu, Jun 28 2018, 12:01 pm

watergirl wrote:

Its almost laughable. From one side of their mouth they say send to camp. From the other side of their mouth, they look at your tuition assistance form and say “oh, you spent $1000 on overnight camp (nevermind the amazing scholarship you got and grandparents who paid for the rest)? You should have given that extra $1000 to tuition. Camp is a luxury”.

The only thing I can’t think of is that the tuition committee doesn’t share who gets scholarships with the hanhala. Which if you think about it, is really very nice. But it kind of is a problem when they want money for this and that and the other, and they have no way of knowing I have no money to spare.

Chayalle

Thu, Jun 28 2018, 12:01 pm

amother wrote:

We don’t owe our kids things we can’t afford. I had no less than 3 members of my child's school tell me that I need to send my child to camp this year. Doesn’t matter that said child has 8 younger siblings, and that I can’t pay full tuition for all of them. How to explain that I really owe my extra money to the school, and not to my kid for expensive activities? Why do I have to explain this? I try and give my kids a good time, to the best of my ability, but I can’t go into debt for camp.

Let those people in your child's school who are telling you what to do, put their money where their mouths are. I love when people tell other people what money they have to have available for whatever expenses they think they have to incur.

amother

Babyblue

Thu, Jun 28 2018, 12:21 pm

amother wrote:

you are underestimating the effects of peer pressure on teenagers. I don’t think this is a conversation about camp as much as it is one about your teen being different from her peers, and her mom not caring at all, (about camp, or about the social pressures inherent in this stage of life) because it’s “silly and frivolous” or whatever you deem it...

amother

Orchid

Thu, Jun 28 2018, 12:42 pm

amother wrote:

You are overestimating the meaning of teen drama. No one ever lost their kid because they couldn't go to canp. Because a mother doesn't send her kid to camp doesn't mean her mother doesn't care about her child. Because a mother says no doesn't mean she does love her kid.

I don't deem camp silly or frivolous, I deem it a want. Housing, food, clothes, health care are needs. Camp doesn't pass the test.

There is a family in our shul that constantly asks for money to be raised for them. They are always in crisis. This family is sending all their kids to camp while saying they don't have mortgage money, etc. The family has been cut off now. I agree with the shul that if you can afford camp, you can pay your mortgage first.

crust

Thu, Jun 28 2018, 1:12 pm

LovesHashem wrote:

My question is, how are you affording school tuition or any other standards in your community if every single one of the 100 girls in her grade is going to sleepaway camp or abroad? Like how did you even find this school if your lifestyle is SO different?!

It is a good question but there can be a ton of possibilities.
They started out there and the OP and her husband did not realize this huge difference until this very episode, to name one possibility.

crust

Thu, Jun 28 2018, 1:15 pm

amother wrote:

I agree that camp has taken on an importance that it should not have.

Again; Its not about going to camp or not.

IT IS ABOUT PUTTING THE CHILD IN A SPOT THAT IS VERY VISIBLY DIFFERENT THAN ALL HER PEERS.

If the OPs daughter would have a few good friends to hang out with then my response would be very different.

amother

Babyblue

Thu, Jun 28 2018, 2:43 pm

amother wrote:

I don’t think his is about drama. I think it’s a general question about teens having what their friends have. There are a lot of ways to make a teen feel good about her summer. I don’t know if it’s you who said this, or someone else. But there seemed to be a lot of pride about her daughter not going to camp OR on a family trip, OR even a day trip. I think there are lots of ways for girls to go to camp or on trips, even if they don’t have money. 1. Sternberg and Dora Golding were cheap back in the day - don’t know about now 2. Camp Bais Yakov let mothers helpers come for free. They participated in almost everything. 3. Some girls babysit or tutor during the school year to save up enough to cover a substantial amount, with the parents covering the rest. 4. A camping trip can be inexpensive if you have who to borrow gear from 5. Some camps allow shabbos guests for fri, shab, sun. His is a fun way to participate. Or if there’s a play / cantata, to go up for that.
And people DID lose their kids because they refused to “cave” into peer pressure, in any instance. I know many adults who carry resentment towards their parents for not recognizing their need to fit in with their friends.
Instead of being proud of yourself for putting your foot down, be compassionate and attempt to make up for it (some parents resist this bec they think it makes them look weak, and it makes them feel guilty, so they adopt an entirely different persona, of “you spoiled children have ridiculous expectations and don’t think I feel sorry for you”)
I’m not saying camp is on the level of food, housing , clothing, etc. I’m saying that despite not being one of those needs - it is still important to some extent. Some schools that strongly reccomend camp, WILL fund it! I know a donor who pays for 100 kids to go to camp every summer.

My4Jewels

Thu, Jun 28 2018, 3:05 pm

I'm not really sure what all of the discussion is about really.

If there is no money for sleepaway than that how it goes. Telling the OP that she will find the money is just plain stupid. Clearly anyone suggesting that OP just find the money does not know what it is like to NOT HAVE THE MONEY!!

Anyways OP your daughter will be fine. Empathize that even as adults we cant always get things that we want because there is no money for them. We can save $ and perhaps she can try to save as well for the next year.

Dont feel bad OP we dont all have lots of money to do things we want to do materially for our children. But hopefully we give them lots of love and show them that we can still have a good life.

Good luck to you!

crust

Thu, Jun 28 2018, 3:50 pm

My4Jewels wrote:

As amother babyblue pointed out, it can be done without money. Parents sometimes have to be creative.

amother

Floralwhite

Thu, Jun 28 2018, 3:55 pm

crust wrote:

Camp is not a luxury anymore because the definition of luxury, especially to a teenager, is a privilege that only a small percent of society has.
Let's not discuss why camp became a necessity but it is.

OP, you dont owe your kids a fun summer but you do owe them to not make a child do something very different than her peers. It is never a smart move in chinuch.

Can she go for the second half of camp?

Just imagine the responses to a Gofundme campaign so that children can go to camp. I can't understand how everyone agreed to this post. Parents should go in debt to the tune of $2000 per child, so that they can keep up? Of course I feel bad and she should sympathize with her daughter, but this advice can be very damaging to someone who can't afford it.