Lakewood peer pressure

amother

Ruby

Tue, Jul 17 2018, 11:35 am

amother wrote:

Ruby that theory just does not hold water in reality. Im of a different community but can tell you that the most I have seen this is in affluent secular unaffiliated communities.

I dont want to derail this Lakewood thread, but, really? Are you familiar with Williamsburg clothing spending, that probably exceeds most "affluent secular unaffiliated communities"'s spending?

Considering theres a lot of people on programs there and the median family size is 7 kids rather than 1.5, its even more interesting.

amother

Jade

Tue, Jul 17 2018, 11:39 am

amother wrote:

I live in Teaneck and I can verify that the competition and obsession over kids clothes doesn’t exist here.

I live in Passaic but spend a lot of time in Teaneck and Bergenfield because I send a couple of kids to school there and have relatives there. I agree with the above. This is true of Passaic as well, except that here there is more pressure on kids to dress like everyone else. If you assume that Teaneck is more MO than Passaic, in this case MO does not correlate (positively) with competition or obsession over children's clothes.

debsey

Tue, Jul 17 2018, 11:42 am

amother wrote:

You realize that the Chassidish culture is very distinct from, and due to separate pressures than, the yeshivishe one, right?

And let me disabuse you of the notion that chassidish ladies have no entertainment options -they definitely do. There is entertainment available in the world that does not come from the Internet or movies or skiing!

This is why these threads get locked. When they go from "interesting discussion of social phenomena" to "free-for all bashing of all people who are more RW than me."

(by people without the guts to use their SN to do said bashing.)

amother

Ruby

Tue, Jul 17 2018, 11:48 am

debsey wrote:

-+You realize that the Chassidish culture is very distinct from, and due to separate pressures than, the yeshivishe one, right?

And let me disabuse you of the notion that chassidish ladies have no entertainment options -they definitely do. There is entertainment available in the world that does not come from the Internet or movies or skiing!

This is why these threads get locked. When they go from "interesting discussion of social phenomena" to "free-for all bashing of all people who are more RW than me."

(by people without the guts to use their SN to do said bashing.)

Just one minute! Williamsburg women also outdo everyone else in acts of Chesed! Many like to spend on clothing, so what? There are terrible ways to spend money and clothing isnt one of them, in my book! Theyre not taking my money.

amother

Ginger

Tue, Jul 17 2018, 11:49 am

I live in Jackson and unless I’m one of those you’re referring to, I don’t feel any pressure at all. I think it’s more of a Lakewood thing. I do care a lot about my clothes but I don’t think it’s overdone.. personally..

ETA: I didn’t quote the post I was responding to, which commented how these people are likely from Jackson and Toms River.

InnerMe

Tue, Jul 17 2018, 11:55 am

debsey wrote:

Be honest, who did you see in French Press? The ladies whose husbands are in kollel and they are supporting their husbands as school secretaries? Or the Jackson/Toms River crowd?

That crowd has social pressure, and definitely the pressure to dress upscale, but it's nothing to do with being yeshivish. Quite the opposite.

Ten years ago, a story was circulating that everyone was upset about. Now it wouldn't even be a "thing"

A man approached another man in shul and asked for a ride to yeshiva area. The first man said "I don't know where that is, but I'm driving down Clifton towards Bagel Nosh, is that close to where you are going?"

Fifteen years ago, it would have been inconceivable for anyone living in Lakewood not to know where yeshiva was. And 15 years ago, there was almost no social pressure about dress. Women didn't feel uncomfortable wearing snoods or plain clothes to go shopping. That has changed.

The culture in Lakewood changed, but it didn't change due to the yeshivish crowd. We're still here. The culture changed due to real estate investors bringing in new crowds of people who came for the low property prices, and changed the look of the town.

(And those people, not the "frummies" as the poster above so disparagingly called them, are the ones who have plenty of entertainment options, and are the ones who raise the standards and make the kids of a yeshivish family who can't afford those standards, feel pressured and beg for designer clothes).

People complain that Lakewood schools are exclusive, but the other side to that story is that mothers of simpler families don't want their fifth graders coming home begging for Kate Spade or to go on a family ski vacation! Why should yeshivishe families be made to feel uncomfortable in their own schools? Exclusive cuts both ways.

Great post, debsey!
I also found that "frummy" description rather rude and condescending.
Ruby, I am finding your posts disconcerting.

InnerMe

Tue, Jul 17 2018, 11:58 am

debsey wrote:

Exactly, you nailed it.

amother

Ginger

Tue, Jul 17 2018, 12:04 pm

debsey wrote:

Firstly, I don’t post under my screen name simply because private information about me was posted. I really would have no problem posting under my screen name as I always have, unless I was posting personal info. But I don’t think I’ve done any bashing either, so hopefully you aren’t referring to me.

Second, I don’t mean to nitpick on your words, but is there something wrong with skiing now too?

debsey

Tue, Jul 17 2018, 12:10 pm

amother wrote:

Then perhaps, don't post bashing comments at all, if you unavoidably must be amother. If you want to attack, do so honestly, under your own SN. Or, you know, just don't say it.

Ask your LOR to pasken about skiing. It's not something you'll find the vast majority of yeshivish or chassidish people doing. I was using it as an example of an entertainment venue that may be closed to people of certain communities, while a great deal of other entertainment options are available......

amother

Ruby

Tue, Jul 17 2018, 12:12 pm

At the end of the day, all communities change over time and whoever is dissatisfied with their community probably cant change it anytime soon, so they can either look for the virtues that came along with their communitiy's perceived vices, and stay where they are, or look for a different community that they'll feel more comfortable in, and hope for the best.

InnerMe

Tue, Jul 17 2018, 12:15 pm

debsey wrote:

It was actually amother Ruby whose posts were condescending and bashing.

amother

Turquoise

Tue, Jul 17 2018, 12:19 pm

I live in Lakewood. I feel no pressure but I like to get dressed nicely.
I don’t see how someone can go to the store in crocs and a snood but you don’t see me complaining here about them. Let everybody live.
The Jewish store clothing just looks nicer on my kids and I have the extra money so I buy them. If you can’t or don’t want to then don’t.

debsey

Tue, Jul 17 2018, 12:24 pm

InnerMe wrote:

It was actually amother Ruby whose posts were condescending and bashing.

You are correct.

Thank you for bringing that to my attention. I don't pay such good attention to amother colors.

Ginger, I apologize. I did mean amother Ruby, not you. Please accept my apology.

But I do feel strongly about the larger point (this is not directed to Ginger, but in general)- if you're going to bash, have the guts to do so under your own SN.

Simply posting is OK to do under amother. I post about one of my kids on here using amother, because it's not fair to that kid's privacy (and some people on here know me IRL). I don't think it's fair to indict a culture or bash a community using amother.

debsey

Tue, Jul 17 2018, 12:31 pm

amother wrote:

I hear you.

I also like to get dressed nicely, and I was raised to dress more formally (though not necessarily trendily) in the street. My father A"H would have been appalled to see me wear crocs in the street, simply because he'd consider that a "house slipper", and not for public wearing.

But are your kids by any chance young? Because when you have HS kids, and there's a lot of peer pressure from both girls and boys for expensive ties, handbags, sneakers, sweatpants, vacations - it's more and more difficult.

I happen to be in the unique situation that my husband is in Kollel, we identify is RW yeshivish, but I can afford all of those things. I still say no, but because I could say yes if I wanted to, I can really see what that would do to a family that doesn't have it.

That shy, socially awkward 9th grader who really wants a Kate Spade schoolbag, or those Ugg boots....or that keratin straightening and haircut from an upscale salon - or that kid in a class where every boy has a Hugo Boss or Ted Baker tie, and a Ferragamo belt - or takes karate or tennis or ice hockey.......these things add up, and it's not always easy to say no. Sometimes, those social pressures can be really painful for kids, especially kids who are vulnerable. It leaves parents in a very difficult position.

I'm all for saying no and not letting the street raise my kids, but you have to also know the individual kid and what he/she needs. Sometimes, these pressures can really stress a family, from both within and without.

amother

Ginger

Tue, Jul 17 2018, 12:33 pm

debsey wrote:

No worries. I totally get you, and it used to bother me when people always posted anonymously, but what can I do if my identity was revealed... I suppose I can request a new name but it just seems like too much of a pain starting all over again.

Re bashing, I don’t think people should bash at all, under amother or their screenname. Bashing isn’t really ok. There have been posters here that weren’t very nice under their screen names and I didn’t find that to be much better.

debsey

Tue, Jul 17 2018, 12:36 pm

amother wrote:

I try to be as polite as possible. But I do believe in debate. I'm OK with arguing with someone, as long as I'm standing behind my words.

But I do admit to occasionally talking strongly with anonymous amothers who bash my community. Any who are upset, can PM me (but then they can't hide behind being anonymous)

I actually consider debating with another person to be a sign of respect. It means I respect you enough to discuss it with you.

amother

Natural

Tue, Jul 17 2018, 12:52 pm

debsey wrote:

So I guess the question is where are these high school kids getting it? High school is a time of great social anxiety and need to confirm for a lot of kids, but I'm not in circles where girls must have the right bag. I don't think there is a right bag. And high school boys are almost totally unaware of brand names. Why do you think this happens?

amother

Ginger

Tue, Jul 17 2018, 12:54 pm

debsey wrote:

Sure.

Asking for feedback, because you seem to be very balanced.

Am I coming across as bashing or debating?

Because I mean to debate, but I know I can sometimes be forceful (blame law school and my own enjoyment of a good debate.)

I certainly have never thought of you as bashing. Only a few posters stand out in my mind as being pretty nasty, and of course all those amothers.

I definitely respect a good debate, and in fact the posters I respect most on this site generally have different viewpoints than I do. And at times I even cross over to the other side because of how well they present their point in a way I may not have viewed it.

Your posts strike me as intelligent and thought out, and those are the kind of posts I enjoy reading and thinking about.