Lakewood peer pressure

amother

Emerald

Tue, Jul 17 2018, 7:13 pm

little neshamala wrote:

these families glance to the left and see that kolel wife you just described, with her adorable kids dressed to the nines, and the leased car and the gorgeous shaitel, and on the whatsapp chat she's asking for help because her cleaning lady just quit.....and yes, even though you are correct that she can do what she wants and live how she likes...its hard when you watch someone live it up like that while also proudly wearing the badge of "kolel wife". Yes we should be happy for her that she has rich parents who are thrilled to support her kollel lifestyle. And technically we are. Ashreihem. But its still hard to watch it. Traditionally, living a kollel life has meant sacrificing gashmiyus for the pleasure of the ruchniyus, and working yourself ragged while some young kollel wife gets her nails done and clothes her kids in the latest boutique styles stings.
Should it? Probably not.
But im just explaining to you the why of this human behavior.

There is MAJOR difference between "having a husband in kollel" and "living a kollel lifestyle"

benny

Tue, Jul 17 2018, 7:24 pm

oakandfig19 wrote:

Um, yeah. All I'm gonna say is, when I went to Lakewood for Shabbos as a newlywed (which was recently), I was asked what my husband got me in the yichud room and where I got my bedding from. Needless to say I cried later, because this is not why I became frum- to talk about my posessions with strangers. Obviously not all of Lakewood is like this, and even so it doesn't make them bad people. It's just not how I choose to live my life.

This is ridiculous. I’m sorry you had to be asked these STRANGE questions by an obviously socially off individual. But.... to contribute this to Lakewood? Cmon guys!

amother

Teal

Tue, Jul 17 2018, 7:30 pm

amother wrote:

Peer pressure as in keeping up with the Kleins and Schwartzs spending habits, in Lakewood?

Thats laughable.

Besides for a tiny minority of very wealthy, very fashion conscious big spenders in Lakewood, most Lakewood women just put themselves together very well with clothing they find in Marshall's, or online, etc, trendy within Tznius guidelines, reasonably, and spend for an entire season's clothing what many BP women, even the senior crowd wearing comfort shoes, consider normal and easily spend on ONE or two items in Taubers.

Theres a different philosophy and outlook in regard to spending in Lakewood and in BP.

By and large, the Lakewood senior crowd wearing comfort shoes, would never be caught dead shopping in Taubers and spending those prices for every day clothing.

I've never even been to Lakewood, yet just viewing all the fancy houses once on Google Maps has been enough for me to know that your post isn't true. People might not be wealthy, but they're definitely pushing for opulent lifestyles.

oakandfig19

Tue, Jul 17 2018, 7:31 pm

benny wrote:

This is ridiculous. I’m sorry you had to be asked these STRANGE questions by an obviously socially off individual. But.... to contribute this to Lakewood? Cmon guys!

It was two different people who aren't socially off and were trying to make conversation about things that are normal to talk about with their peers but not so common with my upbringing...and the same Shabbos my husband said the rabbi spoke about how men should encourage their wives to not put so much energy into the superficial. Again I'm not saying its everyone but there is clearly more of a focus on externals there.

amother

Chartreuse

Tue, Jul 17 2018, 9:18 pm

amother wrote:

The big houses are a little bit of a different issue. Yes, most houses in Lakewood are quite large compared to OOT places. HOWEVER, this is what the builders are building! I no longer live in Lakewood, and BH I was able to afford a decent-sized house OOT. But when I lived in Lakewood, I wondered how I could ever afford a house there. There are plenty of people who would be happy to buy a 2000 sf house, but all that's being built are 3500+ sq houses. So some people somehow scrape up the money to buy one of these monstrosities (and leave the insides quite empty, I've seen). Others are moving to small houses in Jackson that are more affordable. I guess the fact that the builders are pushing these huge houses is indicative of what they presume the wants and needs of the community to be, but there are plenty of people in large houses who would have happily paid less for something smaller.

Emotional

Tue, Jul 17 2018, 10:18 pm

oakandfig19 wrote:

Somebody had bad manners. Nobody in Lakewood (or out of Lakewood) ever asked me a question like that.

amother

Ginger

Tue, Jul 17 2018, 10:30 pm

SuperWify wrote:

Most kollel wives work very hard to support their families so their husbands can learn. They work full time, run busy households and encourage their dhs to learn three sedation. Why is not a sacrifice?

And once we’re in the topic and I’m getting really upset and 😠-

Why can’t she pamper herself once in a while so she can continue doing what she doing? Why do you care if she dresses her kids in pretty clothes that make her happy? Why can’t she have a bit of cleaning help on Friday afternoon when she comes home from work three hours before Shabbos and needs to finish cooking? Why do you care of her parents or in laws are so glad to support Torah that they give them ample $$$ each month that can even be enough for extras?

I truly have nothing against you, and you sound like a very sweet and caring person. I want to give you a picture of how I was taught in Lakewood a lot more years ago than I want to think about... Kollel was shoved down our throats. I know not all had the same experience but we had a terrible teacher who was a respected member of the community who taught us a ton of garbage. (She was eventually let go.) I’m writing that because I may come across as biased. Yes she left some of us with a very bad taste in our mouths. However even the less crazy teachers pushed kolllel strongly, or rather assumed it was a given, leaving no opening for the possibility of marrying someone who actually works. They also let us know how we should basically be poverty stricken rather than have our husbands work. Not a very desirable picture. Then there were our friends from Brooklyn learning the exact opposite - marry a kollel guy and you don’t have to sacrifice a thing. Mommy and Daddy will support your luxurious lifestyle. This whole experience really turned me off from the whole kollel thing. And when I see kollel couples living this way, yea I do feel that it’s not fair that we were taught to live in poverty while they’re obviously living it up. Anyway. Rant over. I didn’t marry a kollel guy. We do pretty ok. As I wrote before, for all I know I’m one of the people op is referring to. And the truth is I really don’t even think this way about kollel couples. I think this just opened up an old can of worms. Funny how we think we’ve moved past things and it turns out they’re still there unresolved deep down. But again, I truly don’t resent you at all. My post was supposed to be more of an explanation than anything, but seems to have turn into a therapy session for me. So thanks for bearing with me. Smile

(Oh and to all who will now defend and deny the way I was taught - this IS in actuality the way I was taught and MANY will agree. So perhaps you had a different experience or are not being honest with yourself.)

Mommyg8

Tue, Jul 17 2018, 10:59 pm

amother wrote:

Large houses are not necessarily fancy or expensive. Whenever my New York friends make comments about the size of the typical Lakewood house, I always tell them-- you're welcome to buy a house here. One of these mansions (which are made of cardboard, by the way) is about half the price of a New York house and at least four times the size. So who's the one living above their means -- a new Yorker who just paid over a million, or a lakewooder who bought their 3600 square foot house fifteen years ago for $300,000? At least let's be fair.

Also, I checked Google maps and I'm not sure what you are referring to. Are there large houses in Lakewood with lots of property? Yes, there are, but they are way, way outnumbered by the many duplexes, townhouses, apartments, and smaller (older) houses.

amother

Violet

Tue, Jul 17 2018, 11:14 pm

SuperWify wrote:

This!! I work insanely hard to be able to support my family while my husband learns. Please fargin a little. Kollel wives are definitely sacrificing. And my mother who loves me and knows I enjoy nice things will buy my kids nice matching clothing because she’s proud of my sacrifice and wants me to be able to be pampered sometimes too. Please don’t judge. No one has the slightest clue what goes on in other people’s lives.

I was once too overwhelmed to be part of the planning for a communal event. Someone “innocently” made a not so innocent comment that my housekeeper could do it. It was the most insulting thing ever.

naturalmom5

Tue, Jul 17 2018, 11:37 pm

debsey wrote:

Be honest, who did you see in French Press? The ladies whose husbands are in kollel and they are supporting their husbands as school secretaries? Or the Jackson/Toms River crowd?

That crowd has social pressure, and definitely the pressure to dress upscale, but it's nothing to do with being yeshivish. Quite the opposite.

Ten years ago, a story was circulating that everyone was upset about. Now it wouldn't even be a "thing"

A man approached another man in shul and asked for a ride to yeshiva area. The first man said "I don't know where that is, but I'm driving down Clifton towards Bagel Nosh, is that close to where you are going?"

Fifteen years ago, it would have been inconceivable for anyone living in Lakewood not to know where yeshiva was. And 15 years ago, there was almost no social pressure about dress. Women didn't feel uncomfortable wearing snoods or plain clothes to go shopping. That has changed.

The culture in Lakewood changed, but it didn't change due to the yeshivish crowd. We're still here. The culture changed due to real estate investors bringing in new crowds of people who came for the low property prices, and changed the look of the town.

(And those people, not the "frummies" as the poster above so disparagingly called them, are the ones who have plenty of entertainment options, and are the ones who raise the standards and make the kids of a yeshivish family who can't afford those standards, feel pressured and beg for designer clothes).

People complain that Lakewood schools are exclusive, but the other side to that story is that mothers of simpler families don't want their fifth graders coming home begging for Kate Spade or to go on a family ski vacation! Why should yeshivishe families be made to feel uncomfortable in their own schools? Exclusive cuts both ways.

Debsy.. I don't know where they live or what their haskafa is. I just knew I was very uncomfortable and out of place..
I went to art shows in posh hotels in Manhattan thru Oxford Club and I fit in more...

amother

Natural

Wed, Jul 18 2018, 12:15 am

amother wrote:

Something tells me you don't have HS age boys. (Or at least no in-town ones.) My sons are well aware of Ferragamo, etc. even though they don't own any designer clothes, nor do they wish to own any.

New York area, MO. With-it, frum boys in my neighborhood don't talk brands - not even sneakers.

I'm wondering how this became a kollel bashing thread.

Those of us who are on the outside see a more formal and "curated" style of dress the further you move to the right. While people should dress in a way that pleases them, it looks like a good amount of time, money and energy goes into appearances.

The question is, does my outside reflect my values? Am I projecting refined humility or do I look like shopping is my life?

There's appropriately dressed and there's overdressed. You won't find the rules in the Mishna Brura. You have to have common sense.

I imagine that the right-wing world will continue to dress more formally than those on the left. Some of that comes from being out of the mainstream (office casual, anyone?). The suit and fedora that looked business-like in the 1960s, when kollel really took off, is now worn only by yeshiva guys and gangsters. Women and children, who had no uniform other than looking dignified, are out in the cold, but equally out of step with the mainstream. (Which, I imagine, is a point of pride.)

In any case, your clothes do tell the world who you are. If the image you wish to project is that of a fashionista, go ahead. Enjoy. But don't be surprised when people take you at your word.

naturalmom5

Wed, Jul 18 2018, 12:21 am

amother wrote:

I went today to gourmet glatt, Dr shaniks office and bagel nosh. I saw plenty of snoods and sneakers. I also saw ladies dressed up in dresses with long sheitals and tons of make-up but I saw plenty of slinky skirts and tops too. There is such a mix in Lakewood. Maybe I'm not going to the fancy places like Ladida (expensive clothes store $200 for sweater for 2 ur old ) or Ottimo ( expensive milchig resteraunt) or Esteria (expensive fleshig resteraunt). Maybe if I went to expensive fancy places I'd see fancy people

Ottimo is expensive ??..

Bagel Nosh, pancakes and coffee.. [edited] .. 6$
Ottimo lunch menu.. Potato skins w guacamole absolutely divine... 7$