Was today a turning point?

Jeanette

Mon, Jul 16 2018, 7:03 pm

Today the President of the United States publicly sided with Putin against our own FBI and DOJ by choosing to disregard charges of Russian hacking of his political rivals.

I'm seeing a lot of Republicans finally condemning Trump and questioning if he truly represents the interests of the United States, that he has sworn to uphold and defend. Even Ben Shapiro said his press conference was "a disgrace."

So, is today the beginning of the end for Trump? Will his base start to abandon him now? Or was his capitulation to Putin really a show of strength? Will this all be forgotten by tomorrow?

SixOfWands

Mon, Jul 16 2018, 7:15 pm

Jeanette wrote:

Nope. Not gonna happen.

Prominent Republicans, including John McCain have condemned Trump. Even Joe Walsh ("I am a tea party conservative, that will never change. But Trump was a traitor to this country today. That must not be accepted."), and assorted Fox News analysts, have come out strongly against Trump's actions today.

I mean, good heavens, did you HEAR him?

But his supporters will tell you that Trump questioning the US intelligence community that universally believes that there was Russian interference in the election (which is not the same thing as saying that the Trump campaign was involved), and stating that he instead believes Putin ... well, they'll tell you it was pure genius. Just wait.

Jeanette

Mon, Jul 16 2018, 7:18 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

Nope. Not gonna happen.

Prominent Republicans, including John McCain has condemned him. Even Joe Walsh ("I am a tea party conservative, that will never change. But Trump was a traitor to this country today. That must not be accepted."), and assorted Fox News analysts, have come out strongly against Trump's actions today. I mean, good heavens, did you HEAR him?

But his supporters will tell you that questioning the US intelligence community that universally believes that there was Russian interference in the election (which is not the same thing as saying that the Trump campaign was involved), and that he instead believes Putin ... well, they'll tell you it was pure genius. Just wait.

Yes, that's exactly what I'm waiting for. This site is my reality check. Whenever I think this gehennom has to be over soon, I come here to learn that nope, not even close.

leah233

Mon, Jul 16 2018, 7:19 pm

I'm no fan of Putin (or Trump)but I think it was the right thing to do.

Did anyone expect Trump to publicly accuse Putin of lying and interfering in the American elections without an air tight case against him?

What for, to escalate tensions?

Or course in public he has to say that he takes Putin at his word.

Saying he believes Putin is something he can always back down from in light of new evidence. Picking a public fight and making accusations which will be heard around the world won't be so easy to walk away from.

Jeanette

Mon, Jul 16 2018, 7:38 pm

leah233 wrote:

Yes, that's what you do when you're elected president of the United States. You advocate for YOUR country. You stand up for their interests. Poor innocent little Vladimir Putin didn't need Trump to defend him. Trump needed to stand up for us. And that's exactly what he failed to do.

In Friday Mueller dropped indictments on 12 Russians for hacking into DNC databases and releasing the information to harm one party and help another. The indictment shows in exhaustive detail the evidence he has. But somehow you'd rather our president wave aside the evidence produced by OUR DOJ and FBI (remember, their job is to keep us safe) and instead protect Putin. Why?

leah233

Mon, Jul 16 2018, 7:47 pm

Jeanette wrote:

I'm not interested in going to war over this issue even if there was Russian interference.

Running to publicly accuse Putin of lying and interfering in the American elections is not advocating for any interest of mine.

Running to make accusations about something that if done already happened isn't standing up for me

I wouldn't do it so why would I want my president to?

So Mueller made an indictment. That still requires major caution before proceeding.

Putin is being reasonable when he said you can investigate those people if you allow us to investigate CIA agents we suspect of crime. Are you so sure they will all come up clean from the Russian POV ? Is this issue really so worth publicly escalating?

Last edited by leah233 on Mon, Jul 16 2018, 7:54 pm; edited 1 time in total

leah233

Mon, Jul 16 2018, 7:56 pm

Jeanette wrote:

Soooooo, are you saying that Mueller is throwing around unfounded accusations against Russia that could possibly lead to war?

I guess we better keep quiet and not do anything if Russia tries to hack our elections again. That might make Putin mad.

I do not trust Mueller to the extent that because made an indictment I'm convinced it's true.

As above even if it is true I'm absolutely not willing to see the US go to war over it.

IMHopinion

Mon, Jul 16 2018, 8:00 pm

Yes, that's what you do when you're elected president of the United States. You advocate for YOUR country. You stand up for their interests. Poor innocent little Vladimir Putin didn't need Trump to defend him. Trump needed to stand up for us. And that's exactly what he failed to do.

And yet when he does stand up for our country, (immigration, terrorism, NK, to name a few, ) he’s attacked the same way.

You’ve got to decide what you want.

And no, I didn’t agree with everything that happened today.

Jeanette

Mon, Jul 16 2018, 8:03 pm

leah233 wrote:

I do not trust Mueller to the extent that because made an indictment I'm convinced it's true.

As above even if it is true I'm absolutely not willing to see the US go to war over it.

United States was not and is not at the point of "going to war" with Russia over their election hacking. However, their hacking was an attack on our country.

All Trump had to say was, "We have strong evidence that your country attacked the integrity of our elections. That was unacceptable." That would have been sufficient to send a message to America and the world that the American president looks out for American interests. ( And really, what else do you expect from the leader of a country ?)

Instead he chose to show weakness and utterly capitulate to Putin. He made the United States look weak on the world stage.

Jeanette

Mon, Jul 16 2018, 8:05 pm

IMHopinion wrote:

Yes, that's what you do when you're elected president of the United States. You advocate for YOUR country. You stand up for their interests. Poor innocent little Vladimir Putin didn't need Trump to defend him. Trump needed to stand up for us. And that's exactly what he failed to do.

And yet when he does stand up for our country, (immigration, terrorism, NK, to name a few, ) he’s attacked the same way.

You’ve got to decide what you want.

And no, I didn’t agree with everything that happened today.

except he got nothing out of NK. And he's done nothing at the border except protect us from little kids we don't need to be protected from. He's diverting resources from fighting gangs to locking up children.

But that's beside the point. I'm glad we can agree that Trump didn't represent the country well today.

IMHopinion

Mon, Jul 16 2018, 8:08 pm

Jeanette wrote:

No point in arguing I just wanted to put my previous post out there.
I’m not trying to convince you into anything.
I’m not even going into your biased response because clearly liberals don’t see another side.
You continue believing what you wish to and I’ll do the same.

BTW, I don’t understand what makes you think that when you support a president, it means you agree with every single aspect of what he does.
Nothing in life works that way.

WhatFor

Mon, Jul 16 2018, 8:38 pm

IMHopinion wrote:

Mueller is a Republican. The 12 indictments that lay out in detail how Russians stole the voting information (including SSNs, names, addresses, etc) of over 500,000 US citizens, hacked private servers including of election officials, etc, should be of concern to ALL US citizens. Not a "liberal" issue.

Putin is an intelligent former KGB agent who has long despised US democracy and has been working to undermine democracies in many countries, not just the US. This was one stop on his list of many countries.

I'm not sure what the "other side" of the argument is about the Russians meddling in our election unless your argument is "it's of no concern", which is certainly a valid argument but of course also not an American or patriotic argument.

The US has long been in conflict with Russia. We were defending the notion of democracy and free speech, etc while Putin has been preventing fair elections and jailing and killing his enemies.

Putin is loving this. Trump is acting like his personal dog on a leash.

WhatFor

Mon, Jul 16 2018, 8:42 pm

And no, Jeanette. I doubt it'll be a turning point. Trump has convinced a certain subset of people that they owe their loyalty to him, not to the United States.

Remember when he said that he could shoot someone in the middle of fifth avenue and his supporters would stand behind him? I think they're convinced that supporting HIM is an actual value.

Maya

Mon, Jul 16 2018, 8:52 pm

Nothing is going to happen. The leadership on BOTH sides is comprised of a bunch of cowards. I’m not holding my breath. After their official statements of “outrage,” they’re just gonna go back to doing nothing.

I saw this on Facebook today: “The real scandal is HOW the Russians hacked our elections. They literally relied on American stupidity as their weapon.” (Meaning, they believed all the outrageous misinformation and proven false fake news stories on the other side)

Yep, it’s too late. I think we’re doomed for the next six years, and I wish for nothing more than to be wrong about that. But I’m not hopeful.

IMHopinion

Mon, Jul 16 2018, 8:53 pm

WhatFor wrote:

To clarify, I was referring to the “other side” of immigration, fighting terror, etc, as I mentioned above.
Russia is a whole diff story which still has got to play out.

Jeanette

Mon, Jul 16 2018, 9:04 pm

Maya wrote:

November really is our last hope.

I can't imagine the country surviving another 6 years of Trump.

leah233

Mon, Jul 16 2018, 9:34 pm

Jeanette wrote:

Do you think had Trump said such a thing publicly and whole world (literally) would be discussing it, Putin would have responded by saying "Oh. I'm so sorry . It won't happen again"?

Do you think the Russians who think like you won't start yelling at him to "stand up for our country and..."?

Jeanette

Mon, Jul 16 2018, 9:46 pm

leah233 wrote:

Mueller's indictments deal with facts. Not theories, not speculations.

Russia ALREADY attacked our country and continues to do so. They hacked into voting rolls. This is a serious, serious breach, which Trump is ignoring.

There are effective responses short of dropping bombs on Moscow that don't require the President of the United States to publicly side with Putin over America.