Was today a turning point?

simcha2

Tue, Jul 17 2018, 8:43 am

ssspectacular wrote:

BTW, Obama openly meddled in the Israeli election-supporting Herzog against Netanyahu. How is that legal in any way?

There is a significant difference between one person (even an influential one) stating an opinion and creating thousands of fake accounts to propagate fake news, subtly influence people and change the national dialog in an underhanded and covert manner. Do you really see no difference? One is open and subject to discussion, opinions etc and the other is subterfuge and unable to be disputed because people don't realize they are being played and influenced.

Using a whataboutism is ridiculous. There is not even a beginning of a comparison.

(And no, I didn't vote for obama -either time!)

PinkFridge

Tue, Jul 17 2018, 8:44 am

naturalmom5 wrote:

If we survived Obama we will certainly survive Trump..

Obama ym"s was the biggest antisemite in my life. Trump is the most pro-Israeli, friend of the frum community since LBJ ..

After 2000 years of golus we never learn... Forget about the political cr*p and just pay attention to who our friends are

I can't see Obama that way. There's no love lost but I can't speak about him with such language.

And as far as who our friends are...come on. Really? Of course we have to have hakaras hatov - for many of us, it's two words: Supreme Court. And of course, Rubashkin. Among other things - but please, al tivtechu b'nedivim....

If we're going to learn from 2000 years of galus. Not to mention plain old true bitachon in the One Power who affects everything. We still have the mitzvah of not giving credence to elohim acheirim: that means ascribing power to anything and anyone besides Hashem.

Last edited by PinkFridge on Tue, Jul 17 2018, 8:48 am; edited 1 time in total

ally

Tue, Jul 17 2018, 9:11 am

simcha2 wrote:

It wasn’t one person staying his opinion. While in the Presidential office, Obama sent his campaign manager to run Herzog’s campaign against Bibi. That’s pretty meddling to me. And if you think the US has not tried to interfere in other elections, I have a bridge to sell you.

simcha2

Tue, Jul 17 2018, 9:19 am

ally wrote:

Who was the campaign manager?

southernbubby

Tue, Jul 17 2018, 9:37 am

Jeanette wrote:

Better Putin than Merrick Garland...

I felt bad that he wasn't appointed. I met him at my son's Chabad house where he and his children, who were college students then, were having a Shabbos meal. He is more to the center rather than on the left and although he isn't Orthodox, he does share many Jewish values.

Jeanette

Tue, Jul 17 2018, 9:41 am

southernbubby wrote:

Such a bullet America dodged...

sushilover

Tue, Jul 17 2018, 9:59 am

I watched the press conference with utter disgust. We voted for Trump because he's a sledgehammer, so to see him act so sycophantic turns my stomach.

That being said, the reaction is, once again, way overblown.
Once again, Trump does something I disapprove of. But then the media comes and overreacts so much that I'm forced to defend Trump.

No it's not treason.No, Trump should not be arrested. No it's not the end of America. AND NO, IT'S NOT KRISTALLNACHT OR PEARL HARBOR. (actual claim on MSNBC) Like seriously, people. Let me be upset at Trump without having to come to his defense because your attacks are so egregious!

Fox

Tue, Jul 17 2018, 10:17 am

simcha2 wrote:

Who was the campaign manager?

Former National Field Director Jeremy Bird.

The State Department gave grants of $350K+ to OneVoice, which directly used the money to hire Bird and four other former Obama organizers. The State Department was exonerated on a technicality -- they had not formally placed restrictions on how the grant money was to be used.

Whatever the attempts Russia or any other foreign government made to influence the 2016 elections, there's no evidence that they succeeded in any significant way. At most, they might have elevated the rank of a trending hashtag, but since former Twitter and FB employees have admitted that those are manipulated anyway, it seems unlikely that masses of voters were swayed.

Russia wasn't behind Peter Schweizer's reporting; they didn't rig the Democratic primaries; they weren't standing guard in key states, preventing Clinton from campaigning; and if a Russian operative was the one who pranced into the DNC with an external drive and hooked it up to their servers . . . well, maybe the DNC should cooperate with the FBI.

Which is not to say that we should ignore attempts by foreign governments to meddle in our civic life -- rather that even the most charitable application of Occam's Razor suggests that Russian interference was fairly low on the list of reasons Clinton lost the election.

simcha2

Tue, Jul 17 2018, 10:30 am

Fox wrote:

Ally wrote that obama sent him. Do you have evidence of that? Or was out a case of an independent campaign director taking another job? (The same way Likuf hired Vincent Harris).

We have no idea on Russia's influence on the election until the results of the investigation are in.

SixOfWands

Tue, Jul 17 2018, 10:35 am

Jeanette wrote:

That didn't happen.

And if it did, it wasn't that bad.

And if it was, that's not a big deal.

And if it is, that's not my fault.

And if it was, I didn't mean it.

And if I did...

You deserved it.

Russian agents (allegedly) hacked the website of a state election board and stole information about 500,000 voters. They also (allegedly) hacked into computers of a company that supplied software used to verify voter registration information. They (allegedly) installed malware on Democratic campaign computers that allowed them to steal passwords, record staffers' keystrokes, take screenshots and observe computer work done on fundraising and voter outreach projects. They more or less admit to hacking the DNC.

But Putin -- PUTIN -- says it wasn't Russia, so all is hunky dory.

Trump was right. He just shot someone in the middle of Fifth Avenue. And people don't care.

Fox

Tue, Jul 17 2018, 10:54 am

simcha2 wrote:

Ally wrote that obama sent him. Do you have evidence of that? Or was out a case of an independent campaign director taking another job? (The same way Likuf hired Vincent Harris).

I'm not Ally. You asked for the name of the individual, and I answered. I personally doubt that Obama "sent" Bird, but the Obama administration provided money to ensure Netanyahu wouldn't be elected, and OneVoice obviously received a friendly suggestion from somewhere regarding Bird and the four other Obama campaign workers they hired.

simcha2 wrote:

We have no idea on Russia's influence on the election until the results of the investigation are in.

Actually, we are able to mathematically calculate the effect of Russian-controlled social media accounts on trending topics and hashtags. However, as we've seen with the #WalkAway Campaign, the role of fake accounts in boosting a topic's trending status doesn't necessarily mean that there is not considerable support from real people.

Were I a Democrat or NeverTrumper, I'd be very leery of going after Russian interference too vigorously. Given the admissions of manipulation that have emerged from former Twitter and FB employees, it would be easy to claim that Silicon Valley is at least as culpable for election meddling as Russia.

shyshira

Tue, Jul 17 2018, 11:06 am

Election meddling by a country that is not a member of NATO (and a critical reason for the formation of NATO) is more troublesome to me than a bunch of silicon valley corporations.

Why was it important for Russia that Trump win? What is their benefit? Does Trumps buddy-buddy relationship with Putin destabilize NATO? Whats next?

WhatFor

Tue, Jul 17 2018, 11:14 am

ssspectacular wrote:

BTW, Obama openly meddled in the Israeli election-supporting Herzog against Netanyahu. How is that legal in any way?

I'm sure this will all be very relevant to the 500,000 US citizens when they find out that all their identity information was stolen by the GRU.

(Didn't even bother fact-checking your obsession makes claim because it's actually not relevant to this topic.)

Last edited by WhatFor on Wed, Jul 18 2018, 4:54 am; edited 1 time in total

PinkFridge

Tue, Jul 17 2018, 11:26 am

SixOfWands wrote:

Trump was right. He just shot someone in the middle of Fifth Avenue. And people don't care.

No, a lot of people care. And a lot of pundits are calling him to task and asking where his staff was, not calling for heads to roll but for heads to take charge.

Jeanette

Tue, Jul 17 2018, 11:26 am

PinkFridge wrote:

And who would have followed Merrick Garland?
(And I'm not sure if we want more Jews on the Supreme Court either.)

So, your fears of whoever might follow Merrick Garland (and of having too many Jews on the Supreme Court) outweighed your fears of handing the reigns of government over to Vladimir Putin.

Fox

Tue, Jul 17 2018, 11:27 am

shyshira wrote:

I'm not sure why you are okay with cynical manipulation when it's done by people in Palo Alto but upset when it's done by people in Odessa. I would hope that most of us want fair elections that are as free as possible from subterfuge.

As for destabilizing NATO, it's already done. Relying on Russia for 37 percent of your energy does far more to put Western Europe at risk than anything done by Trump and/or Putin. This was key to the annexation of Crimea, but Western Europe is still on board to build an additional pipeline -- with a switch that Russia can simply turn off at any time.