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-> In the News
Fox
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 Tue, Jul 17 2018, 11:39 am
| WhatFor wrote: | I'm sure this will all be very relevant to the 500,000 US citizens when they find out that all their identity information was stolen by the GRU.
(Didn't even bother fact-checking this because it's actually not relevant to this topic.) |
Actually, the information available by hacking election board databases can be purchased from election boards, and political campaigns do it all the time. It doesn't contain the kind of sensitive data we usually consider to be "identity information."
Of course, one of the most effective ways to verify a valid vote is to require photo IDs for voting. It would be very easy to track the number of votes based on the number of IDs validated. Strange, though, how that common-sense solution doesn't appeal to Democrats.
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Jeanette
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Tue, Jul 17 2018, 12:03 pm
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It's actually a good thing so many of you are vigorously defending Trump. You are helping elect Democrats.
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shyshira
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Tue, Jul 17 2018, 12:04 pm
| Fox wrote: | I'm not sure why you are okay with cynical manipulation when it's done by people in Palo Alto but upset when it's done by people in Odessa. I would hope that most of us want fair elections that are as free as possible from subterfuge.
As for destabilizing NATO, it's already done. Relying on Russia for 37 percent of your energy does far more to put Western Europe at risk than anything done by Trump and/or Putin. This was key to the annexation of Crimea, but Western Europe is still on board to build an additional pipeline -- with a switch that Russia can simply turn off at any time. |
I'm not okay with it at all - but that's past. I've refocused on the question of why? Trump appears to worship the ground that Putin walks on. I'm sure he loves that. I hope that's all this is. He never would have had such a relationship with Clinton.
It appears to me that Russia is the model of 'great' that Trump is looking for America to be.
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WhatFor
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Tue, Jul 17 2018, 12:05 pm
| Fox wrote: | Actually, the information available by hacking election board databases can be purchased from election boards, and political campaigns do it all the time. It doesn't contain the kind of sensitive data we usually consider to be "identity information."
Of course, one of the most effective ways to verify a valid vote is to require photo IDs for voting. It would be very easy to track the number of votes based on the number of IDs validated. Strange, though, how that common-sense solution doesn't appeal to Democrats. |
I can accept that you personally are fine with having your name, address, partial SSN, DOB, and driver's license numbers stolen by members of Putin's GRU.
I'm personally not comfortable with that. Neither is the US Department of Justice, which is why this act was listed in describing the illegal activities of 12 Russians who were indicted last Friday.
Also not sure how having identification would ensure the card holder is who they claim to be once all of their identification information has already stolen but yeah sure sounds great, and if you don't think this is a concern, you should probably confide in Robert Mueller. He's the one who thinks this could be an issue. But what does he know?
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simcha2
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Tue, Jul 17 2018, 12:08 pm
| shyshira wrote: | I'm not okay with it at all - but that's past. I've refocused on the question of why? Trump appears to worship the ground that Putin walks on. I'm sure he loves that. I hope that's all this is. He never would have had such a relationship with Clinton.
It appears to me that Russia is the model of 'great' that Trump is looking for America to be. |
Until Trump releases his tax forms (remember those?) And a detailed list of his business accounts there is no knowing what he had a stand with Russia.
It is beyond me that the same people that scream(ed) corruption at Clinton are completely silent on Trump not releasing these records...
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shyshira
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Tue, Jul 17 2018, 12:14 pm
| simcha2 wrote: | Until Trump releases his tax forms (remember those?) And a detailed list of his business accounts there is no knowing what he had a stand with Russia.
It is beyond me that the same people that scream(ed) corruption at Clinton are completely silent on Trump not releasing these records... |
I personally am not screaming about anything.
I do think that Trump that sees Russia a blueprint for the US. I also think that Trump doesn't have the power to dismantle and rebuild that US in its image - so like Fox would say - the world hasn't blown up yet.
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ally
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Tue, Jul 17 2018, 12:27 pm
| simcha2 wrote: | Ally wrote that obama sent him. Do you have evidence of that? Or was out a case of an independent campaign director taking another job? (The same way Likuf hired Vincent Harris).
We have no idea on Russia's influence on the election until the results of the investigation are in. |
Obama is hardly going to put out a statement admitting to meddling in the election but it is highly implausible that his campaign manager just “happened” to be hired in a volatile election that Obama clearly didn’t want Bibi to win.
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Jeanette
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Tue, Jul 17 2018, 12:31 pm
| shyshira wrote: | I personally am not screaming about anything.
I do think that Trump that sees Russia a blueprint for the US. I also think that Trump doesn't have the power to dismantle and rebuild that US in its image - so like Fox would say - the world hasn't blown up yet. |
There's a long way between "making America great" and "not blowing up the world." Yet the fact that the world hasn't totally come apart keeps being touted as proof of Trump's effectiveness. Bar lowering much?
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shyshira
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Tue, Jul 17 2018, 12:37 pm
| Jeanette wrote: | | There's a long way between "making America great" and "not blowing up the world." Yet the fact that the world hasn't totally come apart keeps being touted as proof of Trump's effectiveness. Bar lowering much? |
I agree with you. I'm comforted that Trump doesn't have the authority to implement all the changes that he seeks. Top of mind right now is comparing freedom of press in Russia to what it is in the US. Trump is clear on his preferences.
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PinkFridge
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Tue, Jul 17 2018, 12:39 pm
| simcha2 wrote: | Until Trump releases his tax forms (remember those?) And a detailed list of his business accounts there is no knowing what he had a stand with Russia.
It is beyond me that the same people that scream(ed) corruption at Clinton are completely silent on Trump not releasing these records... |
Many of those people screamed up to the ballot box. They didn't want to have to vote for either one, and whoever they did vote for, they did so reluctantly. (I know of reluctant Trump voters; I'm sure there were a fair number of reluctant Clinton voters too.)
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WhatFor
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Tue, Jul 17 2018, 12:42 pm
| shyshira wrote: | | I agree with you. I'm comforted that Trump doesn't have the authority to implement all the changes that he seeks. Top of mind right now is comparing freedom of press in Russia to what it is in the US. Trump is clear on his preferences. |
He only doesn't have the power if the "checks" on his power (Congress and the Judiciary) actually check his powers. Congress doesn't appear to be doing much other than bluster and I wouldn't count on the judicial system being able to check him for much longer.
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shyshira
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Tue, Jul 17 2018, 12:46 pm
| WhatFor wrote: | | He only doesn't have the power if the "checks" on his power (Congress and the Judiciary) actually check his powers. Congress doesn't appear to be doing much other than bluster and I wouldn't count on the judicial system being able to check him for much longer. |
Scary thought.
At a recent rally he openly mocked (or was totally unaware of) the 'Due Process' clause of the constitution. I don't think the amendments can be scrapped - but I suppose they can be judiciously reinterpreted to Trump's liking.
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ssspectacular
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Tue, Jul 17 2018, 1:04 pm
I'm afraid that it wasn't a coincidence that the report came out on Fri, just 2 days before the summit. And for those who are devastated about Trump's actions, please tell us what you would have liked him to say or do. Should he have smacked him in the face? Should they have had a fistfight in front of the world?
Please answer this question. I really want to know.
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Jeanette
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Tue, Jul 17 2018, 1:14 pm
| ssspectacular wrote: | I'm afraid that it wasn't a coincidence that the report came out on Fri, just 2 days before the summit. And for those who are devastated about Trump's actions, please tell us what you would have liked him to say or do. Should he have smacked him in the face? Should they have had a fistfight in front of the world?
Please answer this question. I really want to know. |
Remember, the FBI and the DOJ are there to protect America, not Trump. He's supposed to serve us, not the other way around. Yes, of course the timing was no coincidence. It was a warning to Trump, to Putin, to us, to whoever still holds the illusion that Russia is our friend. They're not. This is the harm they've done. They have not stopped trying to harm us.
What could he have done? What you would expect a normal, decent president to do who wasn't owned by Russia.
Ronald Reagan said, "Mr Gorbachev, tear down this wall." Nobody fainted. Fist fights did not break out. We didn't go to war.
"Mr Putin, your crimes against America and interference in our sacred election process must end."
Just a clear, bold statement defending AMERICA, not Russia. Please ask yourself why that's so hard.
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Fox
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Tue, Jul 17 2018, 1:17 pm
| shyshira wrote: | | I'm not okay with it at all - but that's past. I've refocused on the question of why? Trump appears to worship the ground that Putin walks on. I'm sure he loves that. I hope that's all this is. He never would have had such a relationship with Clinton. |
You do realize that Nick Pickles is currently testifying before Congress -- as in right now? That's hardly "past."
I am truly flummoxed why anyone cares how Trump behaves toward Putin at a press conference. Given everything we know about Trump and how he approaches problems, he believes that words are cheap and that the best results are obtained when the other party feels they've been made to look good. This is not news -- he wrote about this years ago and employs it as part of his negotiation strategy over and over.
Trump's approach has always been to act as if he's giving away the store . . . while not necessarily giving it away. This is what he's done in business, and this is what he's doing now.
You are correct that Putin, Kim, and other bad actors in the world would not have been flattered or treated like ol' pals by Clinton or any of the Democrats or neo-cons who preceded Trump. Instead, they would have scolded and harrumphed so that everyone could see just how unhappy they were with Putin.
Would that have slowed Putin down? Well, it didn't. According to most analysis, Russia has been attempting to hack U.S. elections since 1996. And it certainly didn't improve life expectancy for journalists in Eastern Europe.
I can anticipate the responses: "Oh, Fox would defend him no matter what!" along with comparing me and others to KKK leaders, mocking our sanity, or claiming we're parody accounts. All in the interest of creating a more tolerant world, no doubt.
But I don't see this as defending or attacking Trump. It's simply a matter of recognizing how he works. If you don't like that, fine. If you have concerns about its long-term effects, join the club. If you are concerned he's simply wrong about whether his approach will work, well, Trump agrees with you and he says so repeatedly.
A much better question than what Putin "has" on Trump is what Putin "has" on Obama. The calls from Democrats and corporate media outlets to cancel the summit before it occurred were bizarre, and the hysteria over what was a pretty bland and predictable press conference are downright suspicious.
Why are so many people who either worked for the Obama administration or essentially propped it up suddenly so concerned about Trump speaking privately with Putin? They weren't sent into a frenzy when Bush43 claimed to see into Putin's soul. They essentially ignored Russia for the last decade. So why are they suddenly calling for a military coup or bureaucratic takeover?
My guess is that both Trump and Putin know a great deal more than they're saying, and that renders whatever they say comparatively uninteresting.
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SixOfWands
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Tue, Jul 17 2018, 1:18 pm
| ssspectacular wrote: | I'm afraid that it wasn't a coincidence that the report came out on Fri, just 2 days before the summit. And for those who are devastated about Trump's actions, please tell us what you would have liked him to say or do. Should he have smacked him in the face? Should they have had a fistfight in front of the world?
Please answer this question. I really want to know. |
(1) Trump did not need to meet with Putin, so he never had to face what to say.
(2) Trump, having been asked directly, "Do you hold Russia at all accountable for anything in particular," responded, "I hold both countries responsible. I think that the United States has been foolish. I think we've all been foolish. ... And I think we're all to blame." We're to blame for the election interference? Or for what? There's simply no equivalence here. But Trump loves those moral equivalences. There are some good people here. Except, of course, when it comes to Latino immigrants. But I digress.
He continued, ""My people came to me, Dan Coats came to me and some others, they said they think it's Russia. I have President Putin; he just said it's not Russia. I will say this: I don't see any reason why it would be." Trump should not have publicly -- with the leader of a country that is an enemy standing next to him -- cast doubt on his own intelligence, and stated that he believes the enemy.
(3) Trump is plenty able to say nasty things to other world leaders. Just days earlier, he called the EU a "foe." He openly criticized Teresa May. He attacked NATA allies. He's even attacked Canada. So why do you think that it would be impossible for him to criticize Russia?
Is there anything that Trump could possibly do or say that would cause you to criticize him?
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ssspectacular
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Tue, Jul 17 2018, 1:22 pm
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I do not have the details but I definitely remember that Obama sent planeloads of money to Iran. Iran has openly threatened the US and Israel numerous times. Why no outcry for that? It's our money he's sending.....
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shyshira
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Tue, Jul 17 2018, 1:28 pm
| Fox wrote: | | You do realize that Nick Pickles is currently testifying before Congress -- as in right now? That's hardly "past." |
By past I mean that nobody is currently interfering with the election.
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Jeanette
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Tue, Jul 17 2018, 1:31 pm
| ssspectacular wrote: | | I do not have the details but I definitely remember that Obama sent planeloads of money to Iran. Iran has openly threatened the US and Israel numerous times. Why no outcry for that? It's our money he's sending..... |
Let's assume for a second that everything you say is true.
Obama sold out the US to Iran.
Well, he was routed. His party was routed. Iranian puppets no longer control the US government. The Iran deal is shredded. Halleluka!
So now, having driven the Iranian puppets from government, we will now turn it over to.... Russian puppets? And it's all good, because "Obama did it too"?
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Fox
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Tue, Jul 17 2018, 1:39 pm
| Jeanette wrote: | What could he have done? What you would expect a normal, decent president to do who wasn't owned by Russia.
Ronald Reagan said, "Mr Gorbachev, tear down this wall." Nobody fainted. Fist fights did not break out. We didn't go to war.
"Mr Putin, your crimes against America and interference in our sacred election process must end."
Just a clear, bold statement defending AMERICA, not Russia. Please ask yourself why that's so hard. |
You need to refresh your memory. When Reagan said, "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall," the left went insane. He was a B-grade actor who was going to get us into a nuclear war. Of course, that was when he wasn't accused of being personally responsible for AIDS. Of course, Reagan was thought to have evil henchmen: Margaret Thatcher and Pope John Paul II, who was suspect for being, you know, Roman Catholic.
What would I expect a normal, decent President to do?
I'd expect him/her to look at what his predecessors tried and whether they succeeded. If they didn't, I would expect him to try something different rather than repeat the same ineffective actions over and over just to be feted by the press.
But I certainly wouldn't care that he didn't appease my desire for tough-talking if he deemed it to be ill-advised. As Trump keeps saying himself, we'll see if this works.
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