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-> In the News
Fox
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 Tue, Jul 17 2018, 1:47 pm
| shyshira wrote: | | By past I mean that nobody is currently interfering with the election. |
What? First of all, whatever Russia is doing hasn't stopped; they've just gotten better at it. And Silicon Valley is constantly banning people, demonetizing people, and manipulating various metrics.
Being upset over potential election interference only when you dislike the winning candidate isn't really a good position.
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SixOfWands
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Tue, Jul 17 2018, 1:48 pm
| ssspectacular wrote: | | I do not have the details but I definitely remember that Obama sent planeloads of money to Iran. Iran has openly threatened the US and Israel numerous times. Why no outcry for that? It's our money he's sending..... |
You do realize that the money actually belonged to them in the first place.
And that it was part of a deal that was supported by Israeli generals.
And that there was a ton of protest against it in the US.
And that the US has now withdrawn from the agreement.
But what does any of this have to do with Obama? He's not president. Trump is. So why do you support what TRUMP is doing? Why do you think its a great idea for a sitting US president, while in a foreign country, to express his doubts as to the US intelligence community, and to state that he believes the indisputably tyrannical leader of an enemy.
John McCain said, " No prior president has ever abased himself more abjectly before a tyrant. Not only did President Trump fail to speak the truth about an adversary; but speaking for America to the world, our president failed to defend all that makes us who we are—a republic of free people dedicated to the cause of liberty at home and abroad. American presidents must be the champions of that cause if it is to succeed. Americans are waiting and hoping for President Trump to embrace that sacred responsibility. One can only hope they are not waiting totally in vain." Why is McCain wrong?
Jeff Flake said, "I never thought I would see the day when our American President would stand on the stage with the Russian President and place blame on the United States for Russian aggression. This is shameful." Why is Flake wrong?
Richard Burr said, ""Any statement by Vladimir Putin contrary to these facts is a lie and should be recognized as one by the president ... Vladimir Putin is not our friend and never has been. Nor does he want to be our friend. His regime’s actions prove it.” Why is Burr wrong?
Newt Ginrich said, "President Trump must clarify his statements in Helsinki on our intelligence system and Putin. It is the most serious mistake of his presidency and must be corrected—-immediately." Why is Gingrich wrong?
Glenn Beck said, "@realDonaldTrump became Neville Chamberlain today. Everyone is missing - WHY. This was all about the media and his election. He wanted vindication. What he got instead was a mark that will never go away. Deeply troublesome and a green light for Putin." Why is Beck wrong?
Joe Walsh said, "Look, I'm no big deal, but today is the final straw for me. I will never support Trump again. If that makes me a NeverTrumper, so be it. I am a tea party conservative, that will never change. But Trump was a traitor to this country today. That must not be accepted." Why is Walsh wrong?
Forget Obama. Forget Clinton. Talk about the man YOU support. Why do you think that what he said was such a great thing?
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PinkFridge
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Tue, Jul 17 2018, 2:08 pm
| Fox wrote: | You do realize that Nick Pickles is currently testifying before Congress -- as in right now? That's hardly "past."
I am truly flummoxed why anyone cares how Trump behaves toward Putin at a press conference. Given everything we know about Trump and how he approaches problems, he believes that words are cheap and that the best results are obtained when the other party feels they've been made to look good. This is not news -- he wrote about this years ago and employs it as part of his negotiation strategy over and over.
Trump's approach has always been to act as if he's giving away the store . . . while not necessarily giving it away. This is what he's done in business, and this is what he's doing now.
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So this is his behavior with people he's negotiating with? How much negotiating should he do with Putin?
Because we saw how he treated the other Republican candidates. No respect let alone obsequiousness there.
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Fox
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Tue, Jul 17 2018, 2:13 pm
| SixOfWands wrote: | | (1) Trump did not need to meet with Putin, so he never had to face what to say. |
Well, true. But having had 8 years of a President who quite literally hid in the White House, enough people preferred someone who is willing to wade into the muck.
| SixOfWands wrote: | (2) Trump, having been asked directly, "Do you hold Russia at all accountable for anything in particular," responded, "I hold both countries responsible. I think that the United States has been foolish. I think we've all been foolish. ... And I think we're all to blame." We're to blame for the election interference? Or for what? There's simply no equivalence here. But Trump loves those moral equivalences. There are some good people here. Except, of course, when it comes to Latino immigrants. But I digress.
He continued, ""My people came to me, Dan Coats came to me and some others, they said they think it's Russia. I have President Putin; he just said it's not Russia. I will say this: I don't see any reason why it would be." Trump should not have publicly -- with the leader of a country that is an enemy standing next to him -- cast doubt on his own intelligence, and stated that he believes the enemy. |
So refusing to play a game of accusations and denials is the equivalent of saying he "believes" the enemy? Refusing to let Russian election interference become the single issue in foreign relations somehow means he's disloyal?
Russian spies spy for Russia. American spies spy for America. This shouldn't be a chiddush to anyone. Scolding Putin at a press conference is not going to change that fact and just makes plausible deniability that much harder.
| SixOfWands wrote: | | (3) Trump is plenty able to say nasty things to other world leaders. Just days earlier, he called the EU a "foe." He openly criticized Teresa May. He attacked NATA allies. He's even attacked Canada. So why do you think that it would be impossible for him to criticize Russia? |
Because his bigger goal is getting Russia to play nicely with the GCC against Iran. Putin is getting nothing out of Syria and Iran, but he needs to be convinced that he'll be treated as the Big Cheese he wishes to be, and he needs to find a way to "save face" in the Middle East.
Given the concern that's been expressed over the bloodshed in Syria, I would think this goal would be worth making nice at some press conference. Apparently, though, dead Syrian kids are no longer the concern of the moment.
| SixOfWands wrote: | | Is there anything that Trump could possibly do or say that would cause you to criticize him? |
In conservative corners, people criticize him all day long. But here's the difference: no one takes the position, as has been taken by several Imamother posters, that no good or benefit resulting from Trump's administration is worth having him as President.
So the folks at the Cato Institute argue about trade policy. Military types argue about troop movements and deployment. Legislative wonks fuss over obscure rules that may or may not make sense. Everybody argues over social policy. People expect that they will like some of his policies and actions and dislike others. Disliking something Trump has said or done isn't considered evidence of his awfulness, and general support of him isn't conflated with being a KKK leader, lacking sanity, or being a parody account.
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Fox
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Tue, Jul 17 2018, 2:18 pm
| PinkFridge wrote: | | So this is his behavior with people he's negotiating with? How much negotiating should he do with Putin? |
Enough to get Russia out of Syria and on the side of the GCC and Israel with regard to Iran.
If he's successful in doing that over the course of the next few years, I won't care whether he was unduly nice to Putin at a press conference.
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PinkFridge
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Tue, Jul 17 2018, 2:20 pm
| SixOfWands wrote: |
Newt Ginrich said, "President Trump must clarify his statements in Helsinki on our intelligence system and Putin. It is the most serious mistake of his presidency and must be corrected—-immediately." Why is Gingrich wrong?
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Eh, Never Trumpers don't count. But that the Newt said that definitely means something. NG is slimy, but extremely smart, and had his own bromance with Trump going on. So that he can say this to me says a lot.
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Fox
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Tue, Jul 17 2018, 2:24 pm
| SixOfWands wrote: | | Forget Obama. Forget Clinton. Talk about the man YOU support. Why do you think that what he said was such a great thing? |
I don't think it was a great thing. I think it was a meaningless thing.
People like John McCain, Newt Gingrich, et. al., had plenty of time in office to deal with Putin, either when his power was rising or more recently. For various reasons, they were not effective.
That doesn't mean Trump will be effective, but complaining that he should be repeating what didn't work over the past 20 years is not a strong argument.
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SixOfWands
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Tue, Jul 17 2018, 2:27 pm
| PinkFridge wrote: | | Eh, Never Trumpers don't count. But that the Newt said that definitely means something. NG is slimy, but extremely smart, and had his own bromance with Trump going on. So that he can say this to me says a lot. |
Everyone I quoted was a conservative Republican. Pretty much everyone I quoted, other than Glenn Beck, is at least a sometimes supporter of Trump.
You don't have to condemn him entirely to condemn what he did with Putin. But folks are unable to do that.
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shyshira
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Tue, Jul 17 2018, 2:33 pm
| Fox wrote: | What? First of all, whatever Russia is doing hasn't stopped; they've just gotten better at it. And Silicon Valley is constantly banning people, demonetizing people, and manipulating various metrics.
Being upset over potential election interference only when you dislike the winning candidate isn't really a good position. |
I'm upset about election interference. Period. The 'whys' and ramifications silicon valley interference don't cause me anxiety - maybe I just don't have enough of an imagination.
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Jeanette
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Tue, Jul 17 2018, 2:35 pm
| Quote: | | I am truly flummoxed why anyone cares how Trump behaves toward Putin at a press conference. |
Are you truly flummoxed?
If press conferences are so inconsequential why hold one altogether? If it doesn't matter one way or another, why not show Putin who's boss, just like he showed Merkel, Theresa May and the Queen of England?
Why a secret meeting with Putin with no American aides present?
What was the agenda of the meeting? Does anyone know? Are you "flummoxed" that anyone should care?
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shyshira
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Tue, Jul 17 2018, 2:44 pm
| Fox wrote: |
I am truly flummoxed why anyone cares how Trump behaves toward Putin at a press conference. Given everything we know about Trump and how he approaches problems, he believes that words are cheap and that the best results are obtained when the other party feels they've been made to look good. This is not news -- he wrote about this years ago and employs it as part of his negotiation strategy over and over. |
What is Trump looking for from Putin?
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Jeanette
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Tue, Jul 17 2018, 2:53 pm
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Anyway, to everyone defending Trump, you may want to lay low for a while because Trump's story is liable to change several times over the next few days.
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Fox
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Tue, Jul 17 2018, 3:02 pm
| Jeanette wrote: | | If press conferences are so inconsequential why hold one altogether? If it doesn't matter one way or another, why not show Putin who's boss, just like he showed Merkel, Theresa May and the Queen of England? |
Beats me. Though I suppose he wants to distinguish himself from Obama, whose avoidance of the press was compared to Nixon's.
As to why he handles Putin differently than Merkel and May, I'm going to assume it's because Russia is an actual world power and Trump has specific goals with regard to the Middle East.
It's not Trump's fault that Merkel is leading Western Europe to capitulate to Putin. What's he supposed to say to Putin? "Stop selling so much natural gas to Western Europe because they're too stupid to realize you're not their best friend."?
Nor is it Trump's fault that May decided to do an end-run around the Brexit vote. Truthfully, I think it was a waste of time to meet with May at all; she's not going to survive a general election, and the mood in Britain seems to be deteriorating.
| Jeanette wrote: | Why a secret meeting with Putin with no American aides present?
What was the agenda of the meeting? Does anyone know? Are you "flummoxed" that anyone should care? |
No idea. Presidents do this frequently. Should we be interested? Of course. Should we assume that it's evidence of nefarious activity? Not necessarily.
But let's say that Trump is compromised in some serious way. How will it come to light? When the majority of journalists working for corporate outlets have been crying wolf for two years now, literally lying about the horrors that Trump would bring with him, it's just one more yawn.
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Fox
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Tue, Jul 17 2018, 3:56 pm
| shyshira wrote: | | What is Trump looking for from Putin? |
I believe Trump wants to get Russia out of Syria, in particular, and he wants to disrupt relations between Russia and Iran, in general.
The bigger picture is the role of the GCC and their apparent desire to ally themselves with a strong U.S. and Israel. While the threat of Iran is driving that alliance, the members of the GCC are tired of fighting with Israel, given that they never cared all that much about the Palestinians. They would rather have access to U.S. and Israeli technology than keep hostilities going.
However, Iran looks perilously close to a revolution, and that means a lack of stability for everyone. Keeping Russia from propping up the mullahs and/or becoming entrenched in a new Iranian government would be a diplomatic coup with long-term benefits for everyone.
If international geo-politics were high school, I think it would be accurate to say that Trump, Netanyahu, MbS, and the GCC are trying to establish the cool kids' table in the lunchroom. Putin is being alternately courted and rejected in order to make him want to behave in ways the cool kids find appropriate.
Staying out of Iran is the equivalent of, "On Wednesdays, we wear pink" for Russia. Putin has to decide whether he'll get more status and benefit by working with Iran or by sitting at the cool kids' table.
Which leads us to why Trump maneuvers more carefully around Putin than around Western European leaders. Merkel and May, unfortunately, don't matter. Their problems and concerns are of less and less interest on the world stage. However, I suspect Trump believes the prospect of redefining relationships in the Middle East is worth a bit of unearned kowtowing to Putin.
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Jeanette
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Tue, Jul 17 2018, 4:01 pm
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There is one guarantee with Trump: No matter the scandal, it will get dumber.
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SixOfWands
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Tue, Jul 17 2018, 4:17 pm
| Jeanette wrote: | | There is one guarantee with Trump: No matter the scandal, it will get dumber. |
You mean like saying "The sentence should have been...'I don't see any reason why it wouldn't be Russia'."
Which doesn't correct the rest of what he said.
By tomorrow, he'll have told Putin off in the most certain terms, and anything else -- including the videos -- will be "fake news."
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Jeanette
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Tue, Jul 17 2018, 4:33 pm
| SixOfWands wrote: | You mean like saying "The sentence should have been...'I don't see any reason why it wouldn't be Russia'."
Which doesn't correct the rest of what he said.
By tomorrow, he'll have told Putin off in the most certain terms, and anything else -- including the videos -- will be "fake news." |
You're the dumb one, Six. You're the dumb one for expecting the president's words to have meaning.
And, of course, for getting your news from CNN. Which, as we all know, is the only possible source of news but is also fake.
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shyshira
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Tue, Jul 17 2018, 5:06 pm
| Fox wrote: | An excellent analysis that is critical of Trump without the hysteria:
Washington Examiner |
So going back to my anxiety regarding the Russian election interference (which Trump seems to acknowledge today ??)
I find the following, as per wiki citing sources that I'm too lazy to read right now - "The Russian government interfered in the 2016 U.S. presidential election in order to increase political instability in the United States" (yes I've cut out something about Clinton)... and "undermine public faith in the US democratic process" <----- apparently a direct Putin quote.
Do you think they wanted 'not Clinton' or 'Trump' specifically. What are they looking to gain from the political instability?
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shiaeisen
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Tue, Jul 17 2018, 5:49 pm
| SixOfWands wrote: | You do realize that the money actually belonged to them in the first place.
And that it was part of a deal that was supported by Israeli generals.
And that there was a ton of protest against it in the US.
And that the US has now withdrawn from the agreement.
But what does any of this have to do with Obama? He's not president. Trump is. So why do you support what TRUMP is doing? Why do you think its a great idea for a sitting US president, while in a foreign country, to express his doubts as to the US intelligence community, and to state that he believes the indisputably tyrannical leader of an enemy.
John McCain said, " No prior president has ever abased himself more abjectly before a tyrant. Not only did President Trump fail to speak the truth about an adversary; but speaking for America to the world, our president failed to defend all that makes us who we are—a republic of free people dedicated to the cause of liberty at home and abroad. American presidents must be the champions of that cause if it is to succeed. Americans are waiting and hoping for President Trump to embrace that sacred responsibility. One can only hope they are not waiting totally in vain." Why is McCain wrong?
Jeff Flake said, "I never thought I would see the day when our American President would stand on the stage with the Russian President and place blame on the United States for Russian aggression. This is shameful." Why is Flake wrong?
Richard Burr said, ""Any statement by Vladimir Putin contrary to these facts is a lie and should be recognized as one by the president ... Vladimir Putin is not our friend and never has been. Nor does he want to be our friend. His regime’s actions prove it.” Why is Burr wrong?
Newt Ginrich said, "President Trump must clarify his statements in Helsinki on our intelligence system and Putin. It is the most serious mistake of his presidency and must be corrected—-immediately." Why is Gingrich wrong?
Glenn Beck said, "@realDonaldTrump became Neville Chamberlain today. Everyone is missing - WHY. This was all about the media and his election. He wanted vindication. What he got instead was a mark that will never go away. Deeply troublesome and a green light for Putin." Why is Beck wrong?
Joe Walsh said, "Look, I'm no big deal, but today is the final straw for me. I will never support Trump again. If that makes me a NeverTrumper, so be it. I am a tea party conservative, that will never change. But Trump was a traitor to this country today. That must not be accepted." Why is Walsh wrong?
Forget Obama. Forget Clinton. Talk about the man YOU support. Why do you think that what he said was such a great thing? |
What do YOU think about Trump’s: moving Israeli embassy to Jerusalem? Bringing record low unemployment? Record high jobs? Record high economy, stock market? Giving tax cuts? Sometimes the irrational Tru,p hatred I see is just amazing and completely baseless.. stop watching CNN, you’ll be smarter and feel better.
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