Being forced to pay membership at an illegal shul

amother

Teal

Fri, Jul 20 2018, 12:14 am

We have a beloved older Rav in poor health in our OOT community who lives one street away from us. He's been in and out of the hospital and when he's home, there's a "shul" at his home called "Ohel ___" (his last name). So he doesn't need to be wheeled to shul. We live one street away and my husband is happy to help make the minyan now and then, but NOT all the time (we like our own shul, thank you).

There is discussion about having beis din force everyone in a certain radius to not only help make minyan there, but to pay membership. I am NOT a fan of doing illegal things in the name of "we don't have to follow the laws of the non jews". Illegal shuls, backyard camps, putting 6 year olds in the front seats of cars to rush to carpool, etc. I find I'm VERY much in the minority in my community and everyone looks away at this stuff. We have more backyard camps than kosher restaurants.

I am NOT comfortable paying membership, nor am I comfy having my husband be forced into this minyan, which, by the way, will interfere with our meal times (I have two kids who have special needs and are regimented about what time Abba comes home from shul, etc). I'm ok with him going now and then, but......

How would you handle this? Saying "no I can't make it this Shabbos" has not gone over well.

amother

Yellow

Fri, Jul 20 2018, 12:35 am

amother wrote:

Ironically, the shul may not be illegal. It is complicated, but because of secular religious laws the state can't forbid worship in residential homes. It doesn't sound like this shul reaches the size of an assembly that the home would need to be modified to accommodate code. Consult with an attorney to see if this is an illegal shul.

I would wait to see what happens with the BD. I am not a fan of controlling where people must worship. I would resent this the most in your situation. Can you speak to the Rabbi in your current shul ?

amother

Teal

Fri, Jul 20 2018, 1:22 am

OP here.

Thank you for the advice to speak to the Rav of our current shul. Noted.

I have NO problem with my husband davening there (from time to time). I DO have a problem with paying money there though. It's like paying money to a backyard camp or a home daycare that is over ratio and not licensed.... not that the house needs to be modified with fewer than 20 guys walking there--they don't need a parking lot for pete's sake--- but the $$ being raised in a house--- there are rules for synagogues and I really have trouble calling someone's house a synagogue. For that matter there is a family in our neighborhood with a pool--- an actual inground pool-- the kind that costs many thousands to install. They're a kollel family BTW so don't ask me where that money came from. They charge. They make a ton of money from people coming to use their pool. There is all sorts of stuff going on in our community that makes me nuts.

amother

Orange

Fri, Jul 20 2018, 1:29 am

amother wrote:

Keep the two issues separate

1) they may force you to do something you don't want to do

2) people in your area may be doing things against the law

These are two separate issues, and if you want to go into this in a way that is respectful and gets you the results you want and deserve, make sure to keep them completely separate.

amother

Yellow

Fri, Jul 20 2018, 2:16 am

amother wrote:

It is not like paying money to a backyard camp or an illegal public swimming pool because that shul may very well be legal. It is frustrating, but it makes sense that the government can't forbid worship in private residences. It is in the interest of religious freedom to allow this. In my justification if less than 50% of a house is used for the shul and there is under X number of people gathered there, then it is not illegal. I think the number I was told was 40 people.

I spoke to someone close to me who is an expert on this recently. I strongly suggest you consult an attorney as to the rules in your jurisdiction.

The stronger argument is being forced to worship somewhere. What happened to freedom of religion?

amother

Purple

Fri, Jul 20 2018, 2:34 am

There are a few different issues here:

1. Whether it's illegal to have a shul in the house. It could be that ad hoc services to accommodate someone who can't get out, when the minyan is kept to a certain size, would be legal.
2. Whether you can be forced to pay dues. I can't see how that's right, and I wonder if the dues are a way to cover the rabbi's medical expenses. If so, you'd need to ask a lawyer. If you want to contribute to the cause, perhaps donate through approved tax-deductible channels or just give him a check directly.
3. Whether dh can be forced to daven there. Of course you can't force someone to daven at a particular shul (aside from in New Square). But making a minyan for someone who can't get to shul is surely a kiyum in bikur cholim. If dh is needed for the minyan, I think he should go. You can make kiddush with the kids so they can eat on time.

I agree with you that cutting corners ethically is wrong. Still, we should try to find ways to help those who need it. There are plenty of ways to be supportive without violating the law.

NovelConcept

Fri, Jul 20 2018, 3:15 am

amother wrote:

I am NOT a fan of doing illegal things in the name of "we don't have to follow the laws of the non jews". Illegal shuls, backyard camps, putting 6 year olds in the front seats of cars to rush to carpool, etc.

I totally understand you in regard to feeling both the pressure to contribute as well as the pressure to have your husband daven there. It is inappropriate in my opinion, not that my opinion matters...

However, I do think you need to gain some mental clarity: Davening in an "illegal" shul (even though it may not be, and honestly, in this area -- who cares? The rabbi can't travel and needs a minyan. I am sure it is perfectly fine that a minyan davens with him, even if the space is not registered legally. Obviously, charging "dues" falls into a diff category all together though.) Well, back to the opening after that: Davening in an "illegal" shul cannot be compared to putting a six year old in the front seat. One is a blatant risk of life and the other not.

I don't know about you, but even if it were legal to put a kid up front, I wouldn't do it because of the danger involved. It's wrong to compare this to davening with an elderly, ill man in his home. Try to mentally separate the issues into appropriate compartments.

groovy1224

Fri, Jul 20 2018, 7:13 am

Am I slow? In what planet can a bais din force you to daven in someone else's house and pay $ to do so? On what grounds would they do this? What am I missing??

And the relevance to backyard camps and kollel families with pools is also beyond me, but that's a separate issue. (Are people being forced against their will to swim, too?)

amother

Smokey

Fri, Jul 20 2018, 7:23 am

I think you are making a big deal over nothing. Membership is for people who daven there all the time, not for people who go occasionally to make a minyan. If you don’t want to be a member of the shul you don’t pay! Of course should you choose to daven there on rosh hashana there won’t be a place designated for you to sit if you’re not a member.

watergirl

Fri, Jul 20 2018, 7:45 am

amother wrote:

Reread the thread. The beis din would be paskening that those in a certain vicinity of this house HAVE TO daven there AND pay membership. So they’d in essence be oveir a few things - separating themselves from the tzibbur, going against psak of a bd... and it would be BD who is forcing this issue.

The question is, how can bd make this psak? OP, how did you hear about this? Is it from the rumor mill? Or did a representative from bd say that they are considering this?

I assume that the membership dues go to pay for chairs and a light kiddush?

amother

Tan

Fri, Jul 20 2018, 7:51 am

amother wrote:

Im not sure that works with her kids I understood.they need stability because they are chalenging. If its mental health changes in simple routine to some.of them rocks the boat like an earthquake