The Surrendered Wife: What's the deal on it?

mommy201

Tue, Jul 24 2018, 1:28 pm

amother wrote:

whats hard? I didn't go into my marriage thinking I would control my husband. Not sure why that is the default for so many women.

In the same way - my husband doesn't control me.

Help me understand what makes your marriage 'awesome'.

It's hard to explain if you dont read the book. I assume most people don't go in marriage thinking they will control their husbands, but issuing commands all day, yelling, complaining is a form of control.
There are definitely marriages where people have the utmost respect for their husbands and control/ego doesnt come into the picture at all - but I believe this is pretty rare, and I think I have a good understanding of people.
It's about who is in charge/taking control of everything. We can take charge of ourselves and sometimes we think that if we take charge of our spouses we can get them to change or be a certain way, which we know doesnt work. If you want your spouse to change, then change yourself, it'll definitely make positive changes.
Hopefully most husbands are not too controlling of their wives, but Hashem naturally gave the man the need to be in charge/control and that's how they would function as the best husband and father they can be.

mommy201

Tue, Jul 24 2018, 1:35 pm

Ruchel wrote:

I'm all for men being men. But for some of them, not telling them to fix the toilet may lead to him not fixing the toilet... Or doing it wrong while you're a plumber's daughter and you just know how. Or whatever exemple. Sometimes it's simply a matter of opinion, and why would you always give up yours? We are humans, it's a natural need to control some things. Why is it bad per se? Not talking of annoying people just someone wanting something... why is it ok to always give up because you're a woman? each couple needs to figure it out

The book never says that you can't ask your husband to do/fix something. Again, it's hard to understand the concept if the book is not read, since many people seem to be getting the wrong impression.

amother

Tan

Tue, Jul 24 2018, 1:54 pm

mommy201 wrote:

It was a straight forward request - Help me understand what makes your marriage 'awesome'. Me reading the book (which I have skimmed) shouldn't be required.

A person should atleast have an idea of what the awesome marriage looks like to get an idea of its worth the 'work' this book requires.

mommy201

Tue, Jul 24 2018, 1:57 pm

amother wrote:

I have skimmed the book. I would lose my time to do other things if I read the book intensively.

Speaking from your perspective of someone who isn't in my marriage - what is it that I need to gain.

I only read the the Jewish version and it is a really easy read. I can't know what areas you need to work on since I'm not you and it's none of my business. All I know is that most people don't have perfect marriages and Hashem gave us a lifelong mission to work on our Shalom Bayis. I believe marriage is work and you are rarely ever finished.
I believe that if you are willing to put some hard work in order to get to that level of closeness and love that we all dream of, it can help to read it.

iluvy

Tue, Jul 24 2018, 2:17 pm

pause, mommy201, those who say "Because Hashem created men and women differently"

Can you explain the gender differences with respect to this book's philosophy?

Don't women need to be able to take care of their husband and children?
Don't women need to be able to control their own lives?
Don't men need to take care of themselves and do things for their own enjoyment?
Don't men need to express gratitude for what their wife does for them?
Don't men need to respect their wives' decisions about their own lives?

These seem like basic human wants/needs, not gender specific at all. We're not talking about upper body strength here.

mommy201 wrote:

Hashem naturally gave the man the need to be in charge/control and that's how they would function as the best husband and father they can be.

A man being "in charge" of his wife is explicitly a curse in the Torah, along with slaving to earn a living and dying in childbirth. It's very hard to logically go from there to "this is how they function as the best husband and father they can be"

mommy201

Tue, Jul 24 2018, 2:32 pm

Like I said earlier it's hard to understand without reading. A lot of these quotes/words are being taken out of context and don't come near to mean anything you are saying. Ill try to answer to the best of my ability.

iluvy wrote:

pause, mommy201, those who say "Because Hashem created men and women differently"

Can you explain the gender differences with respect to this book's philosophy?

Don't women need to be able to take care of their husband and children?

Yes. 100%. it doesnt state that women shouldn't take care of their husband and children. On the contrary, the approach actually guides you on how to take care of your husband and children. I can't elaborate because it would be pages long.

Don't women need to be able to control their own lives?

This is what the book is stating. We can control ourselves, not others.

Don't men need to take care of themselves and do things for their own enjoyment?

yes, I don't see what would make you question this.

Don't men need to express gratitude for what their wife does for them?

yes. People need to express gratitude for what's done for them because that's what they need to do for themselves and they need to learn gratitude. One says thank you because that's what the Torah requires, not because their spouse needs the thank you. If favors are done only to get acknowledgment, then we are not doing it for the right reasons.

Are you supposed to get your husband to show gratitude? What is more authentic when you ask your husband for his thank you or he gives it on his own accord because he is grateful. Wouldn't you want your husband to come to expressing gratitude on his own?

Don't men need to respect their wives' decisions about their own lives?

Yes and this book will show you how.

These seem like basic human wants/needs, not gender specific at all. We're not talking about upper body strength here.

Disagree here. Hashem created man and women differently with different needs.
I think it's a little sad that you think the only difference between man and women is that men have upper body strength. What's if I am physically stronger then my husband :-)

A man being "in charge" of his wife is explicitly a curse in the Torah, along with slaving to earn a living and dying in childbirth. It's very hard to logically go from there to "this is how they function as the best husband and father they can be"

this is taken out of context. It does not mean it's okay for a man to be controlling in an abusive kind of way. It is more that the man is the one that is in charge (not controlling) of the household and cares and provides and loves his wife and children.

[b]

mommy201

Tue, Jul 24 2018, 2:47 pm

amother wrote:

No thanks.

My point is - this is the kind of rhetoric that creates additional loathing of this book. Fanatical claims about awesome marriages without much substance to explain what makes the marriage awesome, by people who insist that everyone must read the book. If I'm missing out on something - I'd sure like to know what that is.

Interesting to read that you haven't read the book.

I read the Jewish version and it helped me tremendously. When I questioned about the " Surrendered wife" I was told that it is the exact same thing. I was very happy with the Jewish version with Torah sources, I didn't feel a need to read the one by Laura Doyle.

I don't think you are genuinely interested in hearing about how to better your marriage since this is not a quick fix. It's work. Can you answer me in one sentence on how to parent? It's an understanding of a concept and details along with it, and if you are not interested in it then that's fine.

I can try my best to sum up the book in one sentence. " The only person you can control is yourself. By subtly controlling our spouses we are distancing them from us, even if we dont realize it. Although, many people do realize they just don't know why and how to make it better. By relinquishing that control, our spouses move closer to us and we get closer to that warm tight relationship that most people yearn for"

iluvy

Tue, Jul 24 2018, 2:52 pm

mommy201 wrote:

You said previously that this advice is directed specifically to women because of the innate differences between women and men. But you have acknowledged that there are in fact no gender differences regarding the basic principles of this approach. You agreed that everything I listed is true for both men and women. But then you say again, "Hashem created man and woman differently with different needs." Again, which relevant needs are different here? These are basic human needs.

To say that it's a good thing for a man to be in charge of the household is to take the original idea out of its context, which is that it is a cursed and terrible thing, no matter how caring and loving his regime. This is very explicit in the Torah.

amother

Tan

Tue, Jul 24 2018, 2:57 pm

mommy201 wrote:

No - I can't. Nor am I asking you about what the book says to do (I don't need to).

To compare - the statement would be "talk to me about what makes your kids awesome" (with the assumption that awesome kids are a direct result of great parenting).

pause

Tue, Jul 24 2018, 3:04 pm

iluvy wrote:

The difference is that men feel successful when their wives are happy. (There is a certain need they have to be able to make their wives happy.) OTOH, women can be happy by making themselves happy instead of relying on their husbands to make them happy.

amother

Seashell

Tue, Jul 24 2018, 3:17 pm

amother wrote:

There are plenty of books/articles where
Some examples I've heard (again- I have not read this, so it's possible I may be misunderstanding) is you give total control to your husband over certain aspects of marital life and the marital home. Say finances and repairs. So even if he's a lazy good for nothing and isn't calling a roof repair guy, you may not say anything or hint anything, just smile insipidly at him for being your dear dear dh. The roof can cave in, he can bounce every check, but you just have to smile and take it because if you say something, he might feel bad.

I'm sure she doesn't discuss that exact scenario in her book, but that is its logical conclusion.
Now I get the whole -don't critize, don't take control over every aspect of the marriage, let him do his thing, respect him- blah blah- and I agree with it. Just it seems like she takes it to a whole 'nother level of extremism.

The whole idea is that if ur a surrendered wife your hisband will automatically take his responsibilities seriously! It's just the way hashem created men & women! It's cause & effect, if the wife surrenders, the husband will pick up his responsibilities. It is ESPECIALLY worthwhile for a wife of a husband that is a lazy good for nothing!

mommy201

Tue, Jul 24 2018, 3:24 pm

amother wrote:

I guess I didn’t understand your question though. What makes my marriage awesome? By relinquishing control...

And actually agree with you that awesome kids are not a sign of awesome parenting. But we sure need to try.