Mitoch Shelo Lishma ba lishma

Atali

Mon, Nov 19 2007, 3:23 am

Obviously, the best reason to do mitzvos is simply because they are Ratzon Hashem, without any thought of reward.

But, to what extent is it appropriate to encourage people to do mitzvos, especially "extra" ones (see quoted post below) for other reasons.

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I didn't say we should keep shemitta IN ORDER to bring the geula. We keep shemitta because that is a mitzva that Hashem commanded us.

Maybe I haven't made myself clear. Of course every frum Jew wants the geula and davens that Mashiach should come. The discussion is whether the REASON we do mitzvos is because they are ratzon Hashem (plus we know they have other side benefits) or the REASON we do them is to bring mashiach. There are many mitzvas that are considered a segula for xyz, but that is not the reason we do them.

(Could I respectfully ask that you or anyone else who wants to continue this tangential discussion, does so on a new thread, so that the shemitta discussion doesn't get lost.)

Okay, I'll keep this related to the shmita discussion. The reason why this struck me as being inconsistent is because the discussion was not about the benefits of keeping shmita, but rather about whether it is better to rely on heter mechira or buy produce from Arabs, to which you responded:

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Now shmitta is only midirabanan.

Yet we are still promised that in the zechus of proper observance of shemitta the geula will come.

which seemed to imply that you were encouraging posters to keep shemita in order to bring the geulah, but now it seems clear that was not your intent. BTW, to the best of my knowledge, no one in Chabad says that the BEST reason to do mitzvos is to bring moshiach or get olam haba etc., but rather it states clearly in Tanya that mitzvos should be done out of yiras Hashem and ahavas Hashem, without any cheshbonos whatsoever.

However, as far as "second best" motivations are concerned, doing mitzvos to bring Moshiach (and hence the opportunity to do more mitzvos) isn't bad, particualrly with regard to "extras" (I.e. learning more Torah, giving extra tzedakah, being more mehudar in a mitzvah that you already do, etc)

I will also post this in a new thread, and you can respond to me there. I also put the response here so the other posters can see it.

shalhevet

Mon, Nov 19 2007, 3:55 am

Atali wrote:

BTW, to the best of my knowledge, no one in Chabad says that the BEST reason to do mitzvos is to bring moshiach or get olam haba etc., but rather it states clearly in Tanya that mitzvos should be done out of yiras Hashem and ahavas Hashem, without any cheshbonos whatsoever.

This was very informative. I have gotten the impression from posters on this site, time and time again, that Chabad says to do mitzvos to bring the mashiach.

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However, as far as "second best" motivations are concerned, doing mitzvos to bring Moshiach (and hence the opportunity to do more mitzvos) isn't bad, particualrly with regard to "extras" (I.e. learning more Torah, giving extra tzedakah, being more mehudar in a mitzvah that you already do, etc)

I learnt that the idea of doing mitzvos 'lo lishma' (doing mitzvos for other motives) is positive when a person himself wants to reach the level of 'lishma' (doing mitzvos for Hashem's sake). I.e. say a person wants to daven but is unmotivated. He wants to daven for the right reasons, but realises that is too high a level for him right now, so he decides to 'reward' himself with something after every tefilla. That person will ultimately come to daven lishma.
But say a person puts up a mezzuza because they honestly believe that it is some good luck charm (ch"v) and they only want a mezuza so that they won't get burgled and don't have any intent of ultimately doing it for the mitzva - they will never get there.

Atali

Mon, Nov 19 2007, 5:38 am

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This is where we disagree, sort of. What I recall learning about this concept (not sure of the source), is that it depends on the intent of the shelo lishma. Meaning, if someone is doing something such as your example with the mezuza, it is a positive thing that could lead to lishma. The only time when this doesn't imply is if someone does a mitzvah to go against Hashem, such as learning Torah to be able to write a "Biblical Commentary" full of apikorsus, etc.

According to Chabad teachings, doing mitzvos has a positive effect on the world, even when lacking pure intentions. Therefore every mitzvah is beneficial and every Jew should have a mezuza, even if the person puts it up as a good luck charm. It may not be ideal, but it has merit.

So, do you think there is no value in doing she'lo lishma mitzvos unless one has the express intention of doing it lishma one day? A few examples...

1. A teenage boy learning Torah in order to pass a test in school.
2. A person giving tzedakah to get their name on a building.
3. A woman lighting shabbos candles for "cultural reasons"

As far as not 100% lishma reasons go, I think that doing mitzvos to bring moshiach comes pretty close, especially if the person wants moshiach for the right reasons. It seems to be a much better reason than doing mitzvos to get schar in Olam Haba. Most people have difficulty keeping every mitzvah b'hidur 100% of the time for no other reason than to fulfill ratzon Hashem.

Halevai I would be on the level that I would take on an extra optional mitzvah (giving extra tzedakah, saying more tehillim, doing more chessed, etc.) to bring Moshiach.

mimivan

Mon, Nov 19 2007, 6:15 am

Atali wrote:

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much, much better, since doing an extra mitzvah to bring moshiach will enable others to benefit, not just for one's own personal schar in olam haba.

I don't agree that someone who begins doing mitzvot for other reasons can't eventually do mitzvot 100% lishma. That is what being a BT is about..developing one's relationship with Hashem from a very superficial one to a deeper connection.

After all, didn't the Rambam say that a single deed can tip the scale and bring moshiach...of course, it is much better the deed is lishma, but I believe the Rambam did say it was a "deed" and not a "kavanah."

Atali

Mon, Nov 19 2007, 7:13 am

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I don't think the shmitta issue is so black and white(ie that people who eat/buy heter mechira produce are keeping shmitta too), so it doesn't serve as a good example.

In a way your right, however that was the issue that started the thread in the first place.

The next question is specifically directed to Shalhevet, but other's can answer too Very Happy

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Let's suppose, for example, that Amother X was reading the thread on shmita, where Shalhevet said:

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Yet we are still promised that in the zechus of proper observance of shemitta the geula will come.

After reading this, Amother X started thinking about it and thought:

"This golus has lasted so long, the yidden have suffered enough. I want to do something to help bring Moshiach. Therefore, since I live in Chutz La'aretz and have not had the opportunity to perform the mitzvah of shmita, I am going to buy a small parcel of farmland in EY, plant a few trees, and not touch them during the shmitta year in order to bring Moshiach closer."

So, Shalhevet:

1. Does her mitzvah have merit, despite having "cheshbonos"?

2. Did you do the right thing by encouraging her to do this mitzvah (that she may not have done otherwise) by saying that doing this mitzvah brings the geulah?

3. If you think that you would have acted properly, how is this different from a Lubavitcher encouraging someone to take on something extra in order to bring Moshiach?

shalhevet

Mon, Nov 19 2007, 7:20 am

Atali wrote:

I would imagine that even someone looking for a tenuous connection with Judaism (in the mezuza example) has the core of the 'lishma' there, even without understanding exactly why they are doing it. So I wouldn't disagree. Certainly the second example is one of someone who is never, ever going to get to learning Torah lishma (at least by that route).

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According to Chabad teachings, doing mitzvos has a positive effect on the world, even when lacking pure intentions.

No-one here was talking about pure intentions. Halevai we should all do mitzvos only with pure intentions. I was talking about having no proper intention at all.

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Therefore every mitzvah is beneficial and every Jew should have a mezuza, even if the person puts it up as a good luck charm. It may not be ideal, but it has merit.

I hear what you are saying, but it could also possibly do harm. If a person puts it up with zero intention of the mitzva and only as a good luck charm, what will happen if burglars break in that night and steal all the silver? He could end up with zero interest in mitzvas, that, had we waited a few weeks, he might have put up the mezuza with more understanding.

I have a friend who is a BT. Someone in her family was sick and she pushed that person's children to do mitzvas/ say Tehillim etc SO THAT THE PERSON WOULD GET WELL. And she told them that if they light Shabbos candles etc the person would recover. Well, guess what? They lit candles and they said Tehillim and took on other mitzvas. And the sick relative died. So these relatives were really angry with my friend and threw it all off in their anger (the point is not to judge, ch"v, someone who has gone through such a tragedy, just for us to understand that persuading someone to do a mitzva PURELY for ulterior motives may rebound).

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So, do you think there is no value in doing she'lo lishma mitzvos unless one has the express intention of doing it lishma one day? A few examples...

1. A teenage boy learning Torah in order to pass a test in school.
2. A person giving tzedakah to get their name on a building.
3. A woman lighting shabbos candles for "cultural reasons"

I think there is plenty of grey here. I doubt any of these people are doing it totally lo lishma. Except the tzedaka. I heard that if someone does a mitzva to get public praise, almost nothing is left of the mitzva. (Obviously some people who give tzedaka to get their name on a building do it in order to encourage others.)

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As far as not 100% lishma reasons go, I think that doing mitzvos to bring moshiach comes pretty close, especially if the person wants moshiach for the right reasons. It seems to be a much better reason than doing mitzvos to get schar in Olam Haba.

I won't say any more than to say look at Jewish history.

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Most people have difficulty keeping every mitzvah b'hidur 100% of the time for no other reason than to fulfill ratzon Hashem.

Absolutely. And of course it's a very high madreiga. But it's the one we should be striving for.

Atali

Mon, Nov 19 2007, 7:31 am

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I certainly agree that no one should make promises like that. Your friend is not Hashem, and cannot make guarantees.

However,one could gently encourage someone in such a situation to do mitzvos as a merit for the person, not a promise.

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As far as not 100% lishma reasons go, I think that doing mitzvos to bring moshiach comes pretty close, especially if the person wants moshiach for the right reasons. It seems to be a much better reason than doing mitzvos to get schar in Olam Haba.

I won't say any more than to say look at Jewish history.

Well, I'm sure that there have been millions of extra mitzvos done for this purpose throughout history, but only bad news gets reported.

It similar to the case you mentioned above about the people who dropped mitzvah observance because the relative did not recover, I'm sure that there have been many such cases throughout history, but that doesn't mean that one should never do mitzvos for this purpose.

amother

Mon, Nov 19 2007, 12:15 pm

sarahd wrote:

someone doing mitzvos this way will never arrive at the lishma level.

That's flatly contradictory to the pshat in the maamar Chazal, mitoch shelo lishmo, boh lishmoh.

Next: Shalhevet, the Rebbe's main proof for this concept is the halachic ruling of the Rambam:

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“Every person should regard himself all year as if he were half worthy and half guilty, and the entire world as if it were half worthy and half guilty. By performing one Mitzvah, he tips [the scales of divine judgment] for himself and the entire world and brings deliverance and salvation for himself and for them.”

The Rambam says clearly that one should have this kavono.