It's not always the parents

amother

Magenta

Thu, Sep 06 2018, 9:23 am

I feel like this needs to be said. In many threads I have seen time and again, people referring to intolerant behaviors demonstrated by kids/teens and bemoaning "oh if only the parents taught them differently" or "obviously the parents must be that way themselves".

Obviously there are instances in which this is true, and hateful intolerant parents certainly can instill such traits in their children.

But that can be a very limited part of the picture. Kids are primed to notice and react to differences. It is an evolutionary biological trait that kept human beings (and animals for that matter) as safe and healthy as possible since the dawn of time.

We now live in a day and age, and are fortunate enough to live in the small percentage of the earth that has the unprecedented luxury of easy access to safety and shelter and nourishment, which allows us to spend our resources on luxuries like the education and emotional development of our children.

But the human brain notices everything. Especially a child's brain, that is struggling to make sense of the world around them.

When I take my children to Boro Park, they think that men wearing short pants and unusual shoes is funny. They think round furry hats are funny. To the best of my ability, I've squelched the childish tendency to stare or point, but to them it is extremely different from anything they see people wearing in their world, hence, funny. I can talk about the importance of tradition, and acceptance, and love of fellow Jews until the cows come home, but it still looks funny to them. Because it is different. Period.

Some kids/teens are by nature more insightful. More compassionate and considered. Some are more impulsive and say whatever it is that comes into their heads.

A few years ago, a mom in my 6th grader's class gave me a lovely compliment. She said your child is so kind and good natured, it's obvious that it's because you both are such amazing parents. But the compliment was bittersweet, because all I could think was, if you met my 16 year old, you wouldn't be so sure anymore. Then you'd be thinking something along the lines of "what on earth went on in this child's home to make her so angry and rebellious?"

Stop judging parents that you don't know. You just don't know all the factors, and never will.

amother

Babypink

Thu, Sep 06 2018, 10:38 am

I absolutely agree that you cant judge parents by their teens. There are a lot of messed up, cruel teens out there that have lovely parents.

However, I want to discuss the idea of tolerance, which you mention. Yes humans in some ways are wired to notice and shun major differences. But we are not ankmals and we try to overcome animalistic tendencies.

That's why it's so important to raise children to be tolerant and accepting of everyone. This is very difficult especially in RW communities where there is great pride on being 'finer', classier, more moral than all the masses on the street.

You might have been referring to a thread here where some BY girls from Beit Shemesh mocked a girl who they thought dressed too much like a boy. They even said 'what is she doing here'. They wouldnt dared have mocked her in Tel Aviv, but in Beit Shemesh they feel they have the power.

Why did they laugh at her? The whole gay rights thing is very big right now in Israel, with RW communities lashing out and publicly terming these people as perverted, with נטיות הפוכות.

You cant have it both ways. You cant expect teens to be nice to everyone and then in the same breath say people who are gay are twisted.

(I am not saying the girl there was gay, but the girls thought she presented as a gay person. So what?)

Tolerance needs to be taught, and it sometimes seriously conflicts with other values.

amother

Magenta

Thu, Sep 06 2018, 12:49 pm

ShishKabob wrote:

OP, it's very interesting to me that the same people that blame the parents usually are the ones championing for the kids 'right' to choose on their own, it's their life.
Double standard all the time.
However, of course it's not a parents fault how their kids turn out. Every child has a choice how they turn out and they are responsible for their own actions.
Parents can do their best and model proper behavior. Lo alecha hamlacha ligmor

It's not that I don't think parental modeling of kind and generous behavior is crucial, and I DO believe that parenting in a thoughtful and consistent way is a very important component in who a child grows up to be.

But I find the assumption so incredibly pervasive; if a child/teen is "mean" or inconsiderate to another child, it always comes back to these absolutes of "oh he was taught that in the home".

I was a very shy, quiet child. I couldn't watch movies like Bambi or Dumbo because there was some cruelty in it and it would make me cry. This was NOT reflective of my parents' personalities. I was not a popular kid, because I couldn't fit in with the social energy of it, the push and pull of the popular versus the outcasts. I was never a regular target per se, because I was sort of just there, quiet, unoffensive, etc. But my heart broke for those who were on the receiving end of the constant bullying, and often ended up friends with them. I was confounded by the drive to be cruel, not because I was such a saint, but because it was just how my personality was (I had plenty of other faults, believe me). I wanted to be a mother from the time I was a child, to babies, kittens, sick birds, caterpillars, you name it. I planned to love my kids one day, and nurture them, and show them that they were beautiful and perfect just as they were (all the things I suppose I wanted for myself).

Fast forward about 20 years to where I ended up a mother to a bunch of "cool kids". Most of my children are fairly "popular", one I even particularly struggled with as I felt that she was actually rejecting of the less popular kids, who I myself identified strongly with, and I suppose in a bit of reverse snobbery, secretly felt were sort of superior as friends and as people. Life is nothing if not ironic, and Hashem above does have a sense of humor.

And I'm sure we could all point to reasons, I was how I was in response to my parents' personalities, and my children are as they are in response to mine, etc etc. But from what I can see, we are all just ourselves, as are our children.

ShishKabob

Thu, Sep 06 2018, 12:55 pm

Op, I can totally relate. I was also shy and somewhat withdrawn. My kids are very outspoken and out there. I sometimes cringe when I see them acting aggressively. It's sooo not my speed at all.
I feel like their personality is part of my nisayon and how I react to that is my call. It takes tons of work on my part. They are not bad, just different than me.
Otoh, they are children from 2 parents. Some of the character traits do get passed down.
Our job is to channel their character to the best most positive place.
If you have chutzpa in yourself, use it to stick up for the kids that are being bullied and so on.

amother

Jade

Thu, Sep 06 2018, 12:55 pm

amother wrote:

Yes! Yes! Yes! Thank you! My son has ADHD and poor impulse control, and the things that come out of his mouth sometimes horrify me. He’s only 9 but that’s definitely not how I’m raising him. Kids are independent beings with minds of their own, and they don’t always reflect on their parents.

A different child’s teacher once told me that she attributes nice manners and good behavior to the parents’ credit, but not bad behavior, because she knows that kids think for themselves.

My stepson is 17 and has poor impulse control, along with several other issues. He has absolutely no filter. DH has been trying to control him for 17 years. There is nothing we can do. He just doesn't understand that there are some things you don't say. My other children are very well behaved and we always get complimented on their behavior.

This son definitely does not reflect our parenting.

amother

Tan

Thu, Sep 06 2018, 1:00 pm

I may be wrong , but I think it also has to do with the personality of child and parent. Some parents relate to their own personality and have an easier time dealing with it and know how to approach the child with that similar personality. When the personalities clash, sometimes the parents are at a loss as to how to deal with that child. Also sometimes if a parent is not happy with himself and doesn't like himself he can have problems understanding the child similar to his personality and that also causes clashes, and difficulty in their relationship.
Or if a couple don't like each other , or are not happy with each other ,they sometimes don't "click" with the child that has the similar personality to their spouse and the child feels it.

Fox

Thu, Sep 06 2018, 1:24 pm

amother wrote:

Tolerance needs to be taught, and it sometimes seriously conflicts with other values.

This is incredibly insightful, and it points out why it's harder to "teach" tolerance than it might seem.

I'm a lurker on gay conservative Twitter, largely because it's a lot of fun. Points are scored based on the wittiness of good-natured jibes, and no argument has been fully engaged until Chadwick Moore has called someone "Nancy" and everyone has had an opportunity to insult Lucian Wintrich or make an obscene derogatory comment about Anderson Cooper.

But in between all that, there are some interesting conversations, and a recent one has had to do with what we really mean in society by "tolerance." A number of posters commented that when people demand tolerance, what they often really mean is "approval" or even "affection." Their point, in this context, was that LGBT activists are both unrealistic and hypocritical when they demand "tolerance" that really means "approval."

The overwhelming consensus -- remember, these are conservative posters -- was that disapproving of LGBT people and not wishing to be around them does not necessarily mean someone is intolerant. It means they don't approve . . . for religious reasons or whatever. Intolerance means they're actively trying to do someone harm.

The proposed solution, which I can't really argue with, was "gurl, everybody needs to get over themselves." Not everyone is going to like you or approve of you, and some will be rude about it. And maybe be a little bit more polite to people you disapprove of.

I thought about that in terms of all the threads we've had on Imamother about kids staring, etc. The older I get, the more I think that a lot of problems have to approached counter-intuitively. Maybe the way to teach tolerance is to teach kids how to handle disapproval. "When you see a person wearing something unusual or inappropriate, here's how to act" rather than "Be tolerant."

amother

Babypink

Thu, Sep 06 2018, 2:02 pm

Fox wrote:

The proposed solution, which I can't really argue with, was "gurl, everybody needs to get over themselves." Not everyone is going to like you or approve of you, and some will be rude about it. And maybe be a little bit more polite to people you disapprove of.

That is all fine and well for adults arguing on Twitter. It is not so fine for a young girl being bullied by BY girls in Beit Shemesh, just because she might look gay.

I don't think the solution here is just telling the girl she needs to toughen up, or 'get over herself'. I think it's horrific that BY girls have been so imbued with hatred for gay people that they think she's a 'thing' they can gossip about.

I don't know what the magic method is, but there must be a way to raise children to be kind and compassionate, even if you don't approve of certain things. I guess the problem is that once the parents, educators and culture are rabid disapprovers of ____________ (fill in the blank: homos@xuality, trans, weirdness, whatever), then it's harder for kids to be nice about it.

Fox

Thu, Sep 06 2018, 2:23 pm

amother wrote:

No, you're missing the point.

It's not that she should "toughen" up, though it is arguable that we don't do enough to prepare our kids for the fact that people out there may not like them or may even be unkind to them based on characteristics that they may or may not be able to control.

The point is that we try to elicit good behavior by changing attitudes, and that has a number of pitfalls. The point being made on Twitter was that it's unrealistic and hypocritical to argue over "hatred" or "rabid disapproval" because (a) some of those responses are grounded in religious beliefs or similar strong traditions; and (b) if you deny someone's right to disapprove of you, you can't turn around and disapprove of someone else.

In other words, it might be more productive to say, "Go ahead and hate gay people or whoever if you want. But you may not physically hurt them, stare at them, whisper about them, or act unpleasantly toward them." Fill in additional rules as needed.

It's easier to make someone act appropriately than make them think the way you believe they should.

amother

Babypink

Thu, Sep 06 2018, 2:34 pm

Fox wrote:

I have no problem with any of the above, and I agree it's easier to tell someone not to be rude than to tell him to change his values. I certainly don't think everyone has to love or approve of everyone.

However, I do think that when a society becomes very rabid in its disapproval of something, then it's much much harder to tell teens not to voice that disapproval when they come across it. The more extreme the disapproval, the harder it will be to tell young people not to bully people with that trait.

amother

Babyblue

Thu, Sep 06 2018, 2:45 pm

Two of my children are socially and academically gifted, mature and admired by anyone they meet. Two others are immature, learning and socially low on the developmental scale, and make me the recipient of constant judgement and criticism. Which parent is to receive the accolades or the blame? Neither my husband or myself were like any of our four offspring. They each simply confound us - where did they come from? They are not a reflection of us, and we parent them as best we know how, but we certainly are not responsible for their behavior. It's one of those humbling lessons life teaches you when you become parents - you can't control how your kids turn out, you can only try to influence.

FranticFrummie

Thu, Sep 06 2018, 3:10 pm

As the OP of the other thread, I just want to clear up a few things (going OT for a bit.)

Bet Shemesh is not monolithic. It varies widely by geographic area. I chose to live in Aleph, because it is Orthodox but modern, and a little more laid back. She certainly knows that if she goes into another area, she needs to dress in a way that is respectful of the residents.

When I take the bus, I go through Bet, and see women with seamed stockings and double coverings. When the bus goes through the Old City, I see lots of teens in booty shorts and tank tops. I've met wonderful people across the spectrum, and seen some not so nice ones, but thankfully they were very few.

Second, I don't know for a fact that these were BY girls. I didn't see their uniforms, and frankly all blue shirts and pleated skirts look alike to me. I don't want anyone thinking badly of BY if these girls were not from there.

I don't blame the parents or the schools, at least not directly. I think it's a case of "monkey see, monkey do." The queen bee says something cruel, and all her little drones have to jump in and look cool by agreeing with her. It's the hive mind at it's worst.

DD and I know all of this, it's just disappointing when it happens.

amother

Babypink

Thu, Sep 06 2018, 3:27 pm

FranticFrummie wrote:

Bet Shemesh is not monolithic. It varies widely by geographic area. I chose to live in Aleph, because it is Orthodox but modern, and a little more laid back. She certainly knows that if she goes into another area, she needs to dress in a way that is respectful of the residents.

.

So to go even a bit more off topic, why does she need to dress differently to enter a different neighborhood? Do the double covered women dress differently to enter your neighborhood?

All public streets are public. I don't support purposely walking through a seamed-stocking area in shorts, but if you need to be there that day and you happen to be wearing shorts, then you should feel ok being there. You should not be afraid you will be spat upon, yelled at, or rudely shunned.

FranticFrummie

Thu, Sep 06 2018, 3:34 pm

amother wrote:

No, you shouldn't be afraid. I agree with you on that.

The sad fact is that until Moshiach comes, we have to deal with the reality of what is going on around us. We should be able to build whatever we want over the Green Line, but we can't do that, either.

amother

Babypink

Thu, Sep 06 2018, 3:42 pm

This intolerance in certain neighborhoods is more prevalent in places like Beit Shemesh. In most cities in Israel, from Be'er Sheva to Teverya to Netanya to Afula, you can wear what you want in any neighborhood.
I've lived in many cities in Israel and I can honestly say most neighborhoods don't care if you are in a mini-skirt or a double head covering. The only gear I've seen get a lot of glares and stares is the full hijab with the face covering and the gloves. But I've never seen such a woman get spat upon.

(I hear the Taliban women get a lot of flak on the street but I've never lived in a place where I saw them.)

From what I am seeing on this thread, Beit Shemesh's reputation as a place with some religious extremists that make life difficult is not undeserved.

Fox

Thu, Sep 06 2018, 11:16 pm

amother wrote:

However, I do think that when a society becomes very rabid in its disapproval of something, then it's much much harder to tell teens not to voice that disapproval when they come across it. The more extreme the disapproval, the harder it will be to tell young people not to bully people with that trait.

In theory, you're obviously right. The problem in practice is that there is no end to the categories of traits and people that our kids will encounter, and it's impossible to prepare them adequately for people who strike them as different or odd.

I'll share a story about my late DD, Miriam, a"h. I don't mean to make anyone sad, because I think it's a pretty funny story; it's one of my favorite memories.

Miriam was born with a cranio-facial syndrome and underwent a lot of plastic surgery in her six years. In fact, she virtually worshipped her plastic surgeon and sort of developed the idea that anyone who wasn't born "perfect" should just go see her beloved Dr. Vicari and get fixed up. The hospital was kind of fun, and even if you hurt a little afterward, you looked so pretty when the swelling went down!

Cute, right? Well, not so cute when we were in a waiting room full of other kids with cranio-facial syndromes and she was staring at them. Definitely not cute when she started whispering to me about her suggestions for what kinds of procedures they might need or precisely what syndromes they had.

And really not cute when she saw people out in public whom she felt were, um, aesthetically-challenged, and she started staring and whispering to me about sending them to her plastic surgeon.

Like most fair-minded moms, I figured I'd teach my kids to be tolerant and kind to people who had different skin color; different culture; dressed or groomed themselves differently -- all the usual checkboxes. It had never occurred to me that I would need to teach my child to be tolerant of ugly people! Let alone deal with a child whose life experience led her to believe that anyone whose cheekbones weren't fabulous should go under the scalpel -- and failure to do so meant they just weren't trying.

Her stays in the hospital exposed her to a lot of different types of people, so you could be an African-American flamboyantly gay man with dreadlocks wearing a dashiki and sequined Crocs and Miriam wouldn't have batted an eye -- but if you had lousy cheekbones, well, all bets were off.

Miriam was also happy to offer unsolicited referrals to her orthopedic surgeon, her hand surgeon, her ENT surgeon, her speech therapist and just about everyone else. Needless to say, I quickly revamped my lessons in tolerance, focusing on "We pretend not to notice anyone's appearance and we don't offer referrals to our doctors unless asked!"

The lesson for me was that I wasn't as smart as I'd thought when I planned to teach tolerance, and maybe the lesson for FF's daughter and others is that it could be worse than having some teenage chit think you're gay. You could have a mouthy six-year-old telling you that your cheekbones are inadequate and that a good plastic surgeon could fix that, you know. Smile