What makes someone frum? We all practice differently

shabbatiscoming

Thu, Oct 04 2018, 6:36 am

amother wrote:

I'm about as left wing modern orthodox as they come.

And you live in a bubble if you think that there aren't a whole whack of orthodox Jews who are living a lifestyle - with little actual piety. They come from all communities.

I don't understand FRUM ORTHODOX RELIGIOUS why do you need so many words?

I am 100% sure that there are some orthodox jews that are living it as a life style, but there are many other frum jews, who dont cover their hair, for our example, who are living the life of torahdick and halacha following, jews.
As for all of those words? Some people on this forum think those three things are not the same, but they are.

shabbatiscoming

Thu, Oct 04 2018, 6:38 am

BadTichelDay wrote:

It's a bit like driving on the highway. Anyone who drives slower than you, is a moron. Anyone who drives faster than you, is a maniac.
Same with frum:
If they are religiously to the left of you, they are modern/frey/dati lite.
If they are to the right of you, they are religious fanatics.

The problem is that deep at heart we all feel that our own approach is the best and therefore everyone else is off-center.

My fil (ע"ה) had in my opinion the best solution to this: whenever someone would ask him if certain other people are frum or how frum they are, he'd always smile, shrug his shoulders and say "I don't know. I didn't have my frum-o-meter with me when I met them".

I really do not think that everyone feels that way. Yes, people are doing judaism there way and for them it is best, but it doesnt have to mean that everyone else is off center.

And I love how your FIL said it.

shabbatiscoming

Thu, Oct 04 2018, 6:40 am

amother wrote:

You started an identical thread to what was locked so it probably won't be long before this is locked as well.
A frum women keeps all halacha. She doesn't pick out what's easy for her & calls herself frum. It doesn't have to do with "coming out of the bubble" or "narrow minded". A good Jewish women keeps the big 3, a frum women keeps halacha.

The word frum is yiddish for religious, thats all it is. I know many women here have learned otherwise, but that is the absolute truth. Someone frum is orthodox, someone frum is religious, nothing more and nothing less.
And do you keep every single halacha that you possibly can? Not one person out there is able to keep every single mitzvah, trust me.

shabbatiscoming

Thu, Oct 04 2018, 6:47 am

amother wrote:

Shabbatiscoming take a deep breath. It's ok. If people who have a narrow definition of frum don't include you in their definition, but you know that you follow an orthodox Rav and serve Hashem your way to the best of your ability, then you know that you are frum, and it doesn't matter very much what they think. Don't let it get to you, let it be their problem. You are not inferior to them, you do not need their approval.

We are all Jews. We are all, everyone on the planet, created btzelrm Elokim. This is what is important.

Amother, I could literally care less if someone doesnt consider ME a frum Jew. I just dont like that certain communities are considering loads and loads of frum jews not jewish. It makes me very sad. I of course do not need anyone's approval. I live my religious frum life how I do and know that I am lving the life I am supposed to. But to think that a whole long of people out there feel like a whole group of other frum jews are not, based on one thing, it just upsets me and it really shocks me. Such insularity and sheltered thinking.

shabbatiscoming

Thu, Oct 04 2018, 6:48 am

southernbubby wrote:

It probably depends on why the definition of frum is needed, such as on shidduch websites. Otherwise, we can't simply look at someone and determine their relationship with Hashem. There is a bareheaded man in Israel who goes around getting non religious shop owners to close their stores on Shabbos. The big Rebbeim have invited him for yechidus to praise and encourage his efforts. If the man were to dress chareidi, the shop owners would not listen to him.

Why does anyone need to be determining someone ELSE'S relationship with Hashem.
And dont even get me started on shidduch websites or resumes, really. It wont end well.

amother

Blonde

Thu, Oct 04 2018, 7:02 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

HUH???? A LOR is a local orthodox rabbi and I would say rabbanim who are rabbis of shuls, in local yeshivot and jewish day schools and to top it all off, HAVE SMICHA. Im not sure there is anything to be questioned here. How can we not know who is a LOR?? What

So do you recognize my female orthodox rabbi who danced while holding the Torah a few days ago? She has smicha, and studied everything there is to be a rabbi. She blew the shofar in our shul and then davened musaf for the amud. She and everyone in the shul accept her as our rabbi. Do you accept her or do you have a different criteria and therefore say we have it all wrong?

BadTichelDay

Thu, Oct 04 2018, 7:05 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

^ Thanks. I wish I was on his level in that.

Of course, logically, not everyone else IS off-center. Can't be. There are many different valid approaches to Torah. I merely mean that it spontaneously feels that way when bumping into people who are frum in a different way from us. It's not ideal and one really shouldn't feel that way. But at least to me it happens, until I catch myself and reflect upon it and remember that I'm not the center of the universe and also not Hashem's appointed speaker.
And I think it happens to others as well. It's kind of a human thing.
Normal is always what "we" are. It's "them" over there who are different, hah!

shabbatiscoming

Thu, Oct 04 2018, 7:15 am

amother wrote:

Is this a partnership minyan? I would totally accept her. Why not? Orthodox is orthodox.
I never heard of women leading the amud yet, but if it is done under orthodoxy, why not?
I personally dont want to hold the torah or lein, but dont see anything wrong with it.
Why so defensive?

amother

Papaya

Thu, Oct 04 2018, 7:15 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Right - and there are Jews who say that Orthodox (conforming to what is generally or traditionally accepted as right or true) practice of Judaism requires women to cover their hair - as that is what is traditionally dictated by Halacha... and interpretation otherwise is an unorthodox interpretation. Which if you want to make the terms Orthodox and frum equivalent, becomes very problematic.

shabbatiscoming

Thu, Oct 04 2018, 7:20 am

amother wrote:

Please explain this. I grew up in an orthodox home. We used the word frum to mean religious, that was it. From very modern to chassidish, all were frum. I dont get the problem here. Its just yiddish for religious. Literally.

And I have never heard someone say that if someone does not cover their hair, it is an unorthodox way of interpreting it.

amother

Black

Thu, Oct 04 2018, 7:39 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Whole communities don't have internet nor do they interact with others outside theirs and other insulated communities. They don't have read non-yiddish books or non-Jewish magazines or newspapers. How could they be anything but insular?

etky

Thu, Oct 04 2018, 7:43 am

amother wrote:

What you describe is a mixed bag.
There are partnership and/or eglitarian minyanim (with a mechitza) that follow halachic guidelines and thus purport to be Orthodox but even then women do not daven the amida of Musaf for the amud since their chiyuv is not the same as men's and they can't be motzi the entire congregation. AFAIK there is no other opinion regarding that within Orthodoxy. Even regarding shofar however I think there might be some more room for flexibility (stemming from the type of chiyuv). Certainly nothing wrong with a woman dancing with a sefer Torah and many LW MO do recognize halachic ordination for women.

amother

Papaya

Thu, Oct 04 2018, 7:47 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

No its Literally Yiddish for devout or pious.

If we're talking codified Halacha - traditional Halacha - the various sforim, require women to cover their hair. Am I wrong?

So if there is some alternate halacha that doesn't require hair covering - I can't see how that could be considered Orthodox halacha... but since frum and orthodox don't mean the same thing... I don't see a conflict.

amother

Ecru

Thu, Oct 04 2018, 7:49 am

Judaim is not a ‘feel good’ religion where we get to pick and choose what we like buffet style. We were given 613 mitzvos which we are COMMANDED to keep. we weren’t told to choose only the ‘big 3’ or the aseret hadibrot or whatever. It is up to each one of us with the guidance of our rav to determine how to best keep those 613 mitzvot. so if someone is choosing not to keep TH because DH needs to show affection, I’m sorry but that’s just wrong. as for covering hair, do whatever your mesora is with the guidance of ur Rabbi. but if you choose not to cover cuz you don’t like it, wrong again. as for the poster with the fenale Rabbi, there are roles in judaism and leoning and leading the davening is the role of a man. women don’t count to minuan and are not even obligated to daven. so no, I would definitely not accept such a ‘rabbi’

Raisin

Thu, Oct 04 2018, 7:55 am

Forrealx wrote:

I always get a cringe when I hear: '' It's haloche''. DH did not want to keep taharash mishpacha I never did it I'm from a secular family most of my family is not jewish, but im halachic Jewish and still my mom says to me: '' you are only quarter jewish''. Which still hurts, my mom is Jewish people still see that on her and when they don't see it they call her out for ''filthy Muslim''. So I from a background where religion was evil and secular was the norm. DH's family was seen as anti-woman because we had a mechitza at the wedding (we had a mixed area though).
Why did DH not want to keep Taharat Mishpacha? Because he does not believe that he can't show affection, he loves to bring me a cup of tea or eat from my plate. I just don't want to be zxual. We tried it a few times and it just did not work for us. Hair covering, DH wants me to do it does not matter how he believes that my hair makes me beautiful and I kinda get that my non-Jewish dad hated it when my mother cut her beautiful long dark brown hair when they began dating and after 25 years he stills says it to her. But when I don't want it I don't need to do it. But his family is charedi so I have a sheital for there and for my family I do have a big hair band, hats and so on. But he is ok for me to wear trousers. We keep Shabbat, but when chas ve shalom is something wrong we won't knock on our non Jewish door to ask if they will drive us, or to call a doctor. We call our selves. This is just our private thing and our private relation to Hashem.

Frum is a very difficult term, I think when I would be in a chareidi society and live the life I have now, they won't think I'm frum. But in my society, I am normal orthodox, for my family and secular friends I'm ultra-orthodox also because DH goes to minjan and wears a keppel and we eat kosher.

a. There is nothing wrong with calling a dr or driving to ER on shabbos if needed. You don't need to ask a non Jew. (although its better to take a taxi then drive yourself)
b. Sorry, if you don't keep THM you are not frum. You may be keeping many other mitzvos, but this is a very basic one. If you mean you are going to mikva and abstaining from s-x for 2 weeks but your husband still kisses you and eats from your plate, you are keeping THM, but you are being lax on the harchokos.
3. If you are doing the "public" mitzvos eg yarmulka, hair covering, going to shul, kosher, but not the private ones, you are not doing mitzvos for hashem, you are doing it for other reasons.