Defining Modern Orthodox (in haskafa, not practice)

amother

Sun, Nov 25 2007, 9:29 pm

I honestly don't know.

A year or two ago I might have (okay, I did) called myself MO...this because philosophically my husband and I considered ourselves more aligned with Rav Hirsch, although in actual practice we're yeshivish. After a year of reading about such things as tefillin dates, ladies wearing pants, looking for the lenient psak always, etc. etc. etc., I feel like if this is what people think MO is about, well, I'm certainly not part of that. That being said, there are certain things that I'm not totally comfortable with in the chareidi world either. So I guess now I'd call us "Just Plain Frum". And I suspect that there are an awful lot of people out there like us - we're not looking for the easy way out on halachic issues, but on the other hand, we do have difficulty with accepting literally some of the scientific views of chazal.

mummiedearest

Sun, Nov 25 2007, 11:38 pm

pardon my ignorance, but I have never associated R' Hirsch with MO. His work was to fight the enlightenment by showing that Judaism already had whatever aspects of secular society were of interest to the young crowd of the day in Germany. R' Hirsch's teachings are to be associated with the Yeki world (of which I am proud to be a member), not necessarily with the MO world. I have never seen modern orthodoxy as a clear-cut entity, and I don't believe anyone does. I don't see the "yeshivish" outlook as clear-cut, either, and honestly, I don't see the need for any of these labels to be clearly defined. We are all observant Jews. Why don't we recognize that?

JewishMother18

Mon, Nov 26 2007, 12:54 am

I think MO covers a very large area - probably larger than any other level of frumkeit.

There are many people who "keep" Shabbat in the very loosest term and will call themselves MO - their husbands and sons wear knitted kippot but for the women - pretty much anything goes and they don't keep niddah. I know for a fact that in our community which terms itself MO there are families who live like this and families who are very very much frumer.

Education is another area where the range is huge in the MO world - there are schools that are extremely strict and those that are exremely lenient but they all class themselves in Israel as "dati".

shalhevet

Mon, Nov 26 2007, 2:58 am

I grew up MO and when I became stronger, I felt the difference between MO and Yeshivish was that MO Jews felt that Torah/ mitzva observance was one of the important things to them in life. If Torah values clashed with other values (such as secular education, enjoying themselves, losing money etc) either might win (probably the other value). I felt that MO Jews were living with 613 'problems' that needed solving. Yeshivish people, OTOH, recognized Torah as the supreme value and everything else was merely a tool for serving Hashem. Everything else, therefore, only has validity if it can be used within mitzvos.

The truth is, over time, I have seen this is not always the case. I have met many fine, sincere MO Jews, who are totally unlike the MO Jews of my childhood, and put Torah (in the way I will explain in the next sentence) at the centre. The problem is that MO hashkafa, even when people put Torah first, is that it is always Torah plus.... - Torah plus Zionism, Torah plus social values; Torah plus secular education etc.

I have also met 'modern' Yeshivish 'Chassidish' who, although dressed like Yeshivish/Chassidish have values much closer to MO. Meaning that other things (money, politics, fashion, enjoying themselves etc) are more important to them than Torah Sad

catonmylap

Mon, Nov 26 2007, 3:23 am

The same way there are conservative Jews who belong to conservative shuls but don't practice conservative Judaism in general, the Jews who belong to the Orthodox segment but don't necessarily keep everything) fall under the modern orthodox umbrella.

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After a year of reading about such things as tefillin dates, ladies wearing pants, looking for the lenient psak always, etc. etc. etc., I feel like if this is what people think MO is about, well, I'm certainly not part of that

This is not what modern orthodoxy is about at all. They just have fallen under the same umbrella.

According to my dh: our haskfah is that we keep the Torah. And Rav Hirsch was MO. Rav Breur was not, and the Breurs community(Yeki) turned to the right to be on par with the rest of Orthodoxy's turn.

In my opinion(feel free to add or even contradict what I said), what separates "us" from Haredi/yeshivish:

1. Zionism/army service (how we feel about E"Y)
2. Dress (don't wear the black/white uniform), men don't wear hats. I think we are less judgmental in general in this department. While I believe women should cover their hair, I try not to judge women who decided not to, especially women who are older than me from a different generation. I don't wear pants, but I "understand" the reasons/halacha, and try not to judge those who do. I wear denim (and I "get" that haredi people don't, even though I don't understand it). And I dress casual in general. I could never survive as haredi (my feet would always hurt me: I need to wear comfortable shoes lol).
3. Caring about all of klal yisroel in terms of policies(creating a "lower" level of kashrut so more people will keep it, conversion policies, heter mechica so more people will keep shmitta--thinking about the farmers point of view too, dealing with the non-religious
4. Belief in higher education-you can go to college, even a secular one, it's not going to corrupt you. Education is respected. A Rav should have a college degree, a masters or phd even.
5. Philosophy-will rectify science views with Torah views(ie definition of a day to fit in with age of the universe etc). History fits in with Torah/Gemara. You can look at other sources. I agree 100% with what Hadassa wrote in the other thread. It was very impressive, but lost on those who don't have a clue but the transmission/development of the Oral law. I also think we are more open to asking questions.
6. Women can study Torah too (including Gemara if they want too). And there are places for more women's participation in the community (from halachic advisors to women's tefillah groups) We will all have a different level of what we think is okay/good to add. But we will be more supportive or at least open to the idea.
7. I would say we are more resistant to adding chumrot, while the Haredi world welcomes them with open arms (example: aluminum foil in cholent pots, chalav yisroel, pas yisroel).

On a lighter note: have you taken this poll that was the rave a while back?
http://www.nerdtests.com/mq/take.php?id=200

mali

Mon, Nov 26 2007, 4:21 am

catonmylap, most of your post defines MO practice. op was asking for the hashkafa part. I'm still trying to understand some things:

- shalhevet and you basically said the same thing, except you had a different way of explaining it.

- you seem to have a lot of tolerance for women who keep less than you, but zero understanding towards those who keep more (reread your post).

- creating lower standards, which you called "caring for klal yisroel" can create many problems. basically, you were saying this:

Quote:

I felt that MO Jews were living with 613 'problems' that needed solving

but phrased it differently. same for the next point about rectifying science. so far, from what I've seen on this board, people were trying to rectify torah.

- as far as chumrot, be careful with the way you word it and with the examples you choose. chalav yisrael and pas yisrael aren't chumrot. rather, chalav stam and pas akum are kulot!

- women learning gemarra isn't exclusive to MO. I'm chareidi, and I see no problem with it (unless you learn it as a science or a piece of literature).

Atali

Mon, Nov 26 2007, 4:29 am

Quote:

There are many people who "keep" Shabbat in the very loosest term and will call themselves MO - their husbands and sons wear knitted kippot but for the women - pretty much anything goes and they don't keep niddah. I know for a fact that in our community which terms itself MO there are families who live like this and families who are very very much frumer.

This is why I asked about hashkafa and not observence. Observence can very widely within any group (do to people's individual tendancies), but not necessarily hashkafa. For example most Lubavitchers have similar hashkafos whether they are very machmir or very meikel in practical observance.

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1. Zionism/army service (how we feel about E"Y)

Is zionism an essential part of MO, meaning can one be MO and not Zionist, or somewhat zionist and not believe that the state of Israel is the beginning of the geulah, etc.

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I could never survive as haredi (my feet would always hurt me: I need to wear comfortable shoes lol).

I find my shoes quite comfortable, thank you Very Happy

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Belief in higher education-you can go to college, even a secular one, it's not going to corrupt you. Education is respected. A Rav should have a college degree, a masters or phd even.

Is higher education optional or almost required? If a boy or girl is not intellectually inclined do they feel pressured to get a secular education in the way there is pressure (l'havdil) to learn Torah?

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I agree 100% with what Hadassa wrote in the other thread.

Even about the tzedukim? Just because I don't agree with her doesn't mean that I don't understand her, I do, but disagree strongly.

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Women can study Torah too (including Gemara if they want too). And there are places for more women's participation in the community (from halachic advisors to women's tefillah groups) We will all have a different level of what we think is okay/good to add. But we will be more supportive or at least open to the idea.

Until what point? For example, it my community they started a new minyan which has a mechitza, but allows women to lead davening and do krias haTorah. Is this acceptable within mainstream MO?

shalhevet

Mon, Nov 26 2007, 4:40 am

catonmylap wrote:

1. Zionism/army service (how we feel about E"Y)

Firstly, I don't think you mean EY, but Medinat Yisrael.
Secondly, you are talking about a certain group within MO. I have MO relations in Israel (and in chul it's even more so) who are almost not into kedushas EY at all. They live their lives to be materially comfortable, and I can't imagine they would turn down a tempting job offer in chul. Not only that, but the only frum people I know who take vacations out of EY (as opposed to visiting relatives) are MO.

Quote:

3. Caring about all of klal yisroel in terms of policies(creating a "lower" level of kashrut so more people will keep it, conversion policies, heter mechica so more people will keep shmitta--thinking about the farmers point of view too, dealing with the non-religious

You are wrong. Chareidim demanding higher kashrus standards has raised kashrus standards for everyone. Today over 30% of the food market in Israel is mehadrin.

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I agree 100% with what Hadassa wrote in the other thread.

So why do you keep mitzvos at all if it all began at the time of the Mishna and gemorra?

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7. I would say we are more resistant to adding chumrot, while the Haredi world welcomes them with open arms (example: aluminum foil in cholent pots, chalav yisroel, pas yisroel).

How can people 'add' chumrot, mentioned as halacha in the SA? shock

catonmylap

Mon, Nov 26 2007, 4:46 am

[quote="Atali"]

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Agreed

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Is zionism an essential part of MO, meaning can one be MO and not Zionist, or somewhat zionist and not believe that the state of Israel is the beginning of the geulah, etc.

I think, yes, but I would like to hear if anyone disagrees with me.

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I find my shoes quite comfortable, thank you Very Happy

I'm glad you do Smile

I personally just can't cope with dress shoes.

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I think it's optional. But I think a larger portion of the MO community is very educated, ie doctors, lawyers, professors and it would be the norm for them to pressure their kids to get a secular education. I don't think our hasfaka is that you have to, but rather it is allowed, valued, and respected. If a particular boy or girl is more suited to being a plumber or a secretary, that is totally fine.

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Even about the tzedukim? Just because I don't agree with her doesn't mean that I don't understand her, I do, but disagree strongly.

Yes, I actually asked my dh about the tzedukim, and he said she was 100% right. I don't disqualify things when I don't know. I think if you looked into, you would find that she is right as well. I'd be curious what someone like Rav Beryl Wein would say (as he is a historian as well).

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Until what point? For example, it my community they started a new minyan which has a mechitza, but allows women to lead davening and do krias haTorah. Is this acceptable within mainstream MO?[

I think that is going to vary across the spectrum. To me, mainstream would be okay with(but not necessarily supportive or into) women's davening and kriyat hatorah separately with no men there, where women don't say kedusha, and don't say the brochot on the aliyot.

catonmylap

Mon, Nov 26 2007, 4:51 am

shalhevet wrote:

1. Zionism/army service (how we feel about E"Y)

Quote:

Firstly, I don't think you mean EY, but Medinat Yisrael.

Correct. To us they go together.

Quote:

Secondly, you are talking about a certain group within MO. I have MO relations in Israel (and in chul it's even more so) who are almost not into kedushas EY at all.

maybe, but haskafically I think they would admit that they believe in medinat yisrael

The rest of your question/comments(on kashrut, on chumrot, and on Hadassa's posts) are picking a fight in my opinion, which is not the purpose of this thread, so I am not answering them (which does not mean you are right).

Atali

Mon, Nov 26 2007, 5:00 am

Quote:

Quote:
Until what point? For example, it my community they started a new minyan which has a mechitza, but allows women to lead davening and do krias haTorah. Is this acceptable within mainstream MO?[

I think that is going to vary across the spectrum. To me, mainstream would be okay with(but not necessarily supportive or into) women's davening and kriyat hatorah separately with no men there, where women don't say kedusha, and don't say the brochot on the aliyot.

Okay, but the minyan that I'm referring to (called Shira Chadasha, for anyone familiar with Australia) has men there, but on the other side of the mechitza. They are extremely controversial and not accepted among the Rabbis of the community, but (unfortunately) quite popular among the younger generation.

catonmylap

Mon, Nov 26 2007, 5:11 am

shalhevet wrote:

catonmylap wrote:

shalhevet wrote:

1. Zionism/army service (how we feel about E"Y)

Quote:

Firstly, I don't think you mean EY, but Medinat Yisrael.

Correct. To us they go together.

Well, Eilat and the Israeli consulates in other countries are part of the Medina, but not part of EY.

And much of Southern Lebanon is EY, but not MY.

So how can you say they go together?

You are missing the point. I live in Eretz Yisroel because I believe Jews are supposed live here, that Hashem gave us Eretz Yisroel and it is the holiest land.

I support Medinat Yisroel. I made aliya. My husband served in hesder, my son Iy"H will serve in the army. I pay taxes that go toward supporting Jews in E"Y, even Torah learning. I feel that Medinat Yisroel is Reshit Semchat Geulatanu (the flowering of the redemption) and it is one the biggest miracles in our times.

Just because every part of the current medina is not part of the biblical E"Y, and just because every part of the biblical E"Y is not part of the current does negate my point.

HindaRochel

Mon, Nov 26 2007, 5:25 am

shalhevet wrote:

catonmylap wrote:

1. Zionism/army service (how we feel about E"Y)

Firstly, I don't think you mean EY, but Medinat Yisrael

.

Well I mean both. First there is an issue of anywhere we have stepped that land will be ours. Yes, it doesn't have the kedusha of the land specifically given to us by Hashem, but it does retain a certain kedusha. Secondly, I do believe we need to liberate our lands from the hands of our oppressors, but one battle at a time. First we have to show a willingness to keep what we have and fight to defend ourselves; when we do so Hashem will come to our aide and all the land will come back to us and no one will argue. But we have to show, by going into the army ourselves if we are young enough or supporting the soldiers and allowing firstly all our sons and even our daughters into non-fighting units (btw, there is an idea that when Hashem commands a war even women fought) to defend and protect our land.

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Secondly, you are talking about a certain group within MO. I have MO relations in Israel (and in chul it's even more so) who are almost not into kedushas EY at all. They live their lives to be materially comfortable, and I can't imagine they would turn down a tempting job offer in chul. Not only that, but the only frum people I know who take vacations out of EY (as opposed to visiting relatives) are MO.

Get to know more people; that's not what I've seen. I know too many Charedim who are happily enscounced in USA etc. and living in abundance. I do know people who have gone back to the USA, but they would not have termed themselves MO.

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You are wrong. Chareidim demanding higher kashrus standards has raised kashrus standards for everyone. Today over 30% of the food market in Israel is mehadrin.

That doesn't mean that more people are respecting the laws. Standards should be according to Halacha and not according to chumrot.

Quote:

7. I would say we are more resistant to adding chumrot, while the Haredi world welcomes them with open arms (example: aluminum foil in cholent pots, chalav yisroel, pas yisroel).

How can people 'add' chumrot, mentioned as halacha in the SA? shock

[/quote]

People treat chumrot as if they were halachot. People act as if "this were the Halacha" rather than one interpretation/understanding the halacha.

e.g. covering the legs. There are different ideas, but some people act as if it were halacha, rather than an understanding of halacha, that the feet or the whole of the leg needed to be covered, and therefore people who went without socks were in violation of the halacha.