Please be honest about seminary.

amother

Coffee

Mon, Nov 12 2018, 5:37 am

Posting as a daughter. 98% of my bais yakov class went to seminary. (This is in monsey)
I flat out said I didnt want to go because I knew my parents could NOT afford it and also because I felt that after having a Jewish education for 12 years, I should be solid enough.
My teachers and principals were besides themselves. (I was a straight A studious girl with great middos and never gave them trouble-why was I not going? Did I realize I was destroying my future? My chances for a good shidduch? Blah blah)

Either way, I trusted that Hashem would take care of me. I immediately started a college program during the day and I went to local shiurim (not seminary or program. Just shiurim) at night-not because I was made to, but because I wanted to continue my spiritual growth. Just like I would want if I was married already.
I (GASP) dared to say I was looking for someone who would be learning full time, for as long as "we could afford it and make it work together". No support necessary, and because I didnt go to seminary, I was a full year ahead of my classmates and got my degree earlier.

Of course people told me if I didnt go to seminary (ANY seminary! The horror!)I wouldnt get a learning boy.

Well they were wrong. 2 years after graduating high school, 1 year after my friends came back from sem, I met my husband, through regular old shadchan system, no seminary needed. BH with my degree and a lot of frugality we managed to stay in kolel for the first 5 years and he is still very connected to the yeshiva and his Rebbeim. And he is THE BEST HUSBAND EVER BH BH BH. again, no seminary needed. Just Hashem.

And my friends and classmates? I dont know what they say personally (and im sure many would say it was the best thing for them etc) but I can tell you one observation-its been about 10 years since seminary year and we recently had a reunion-hardly ANY of them dress/speak/behave the same way they did the first few years after seminary. Whatever it was that influenced them to behave like they did post-sem has long worn off.

amother

Hotpink

Mon, Nov 12 2018, 5:57 am

amother wrote:

Please, be honest, all of u whose dd go to seminary would u choose a girl who went to seminary for ur son to date over a girl who didnt attend seminary??

To answer your last question. I'm in shidduchim now, and honestly I'd take a girl who didn't attend seminary over a girl who did. There is a high probability that a girl straight out of sem is not talking her own mind, just repeating everything that sem has drilled into her. I'd prefer a girl who is her own true self to someone who will find herself a couple of years down the road.

But that's just me (and my son).

PinkFridge

Mon, Nov 12 2018, 6:09 am

rgr wrote:

There's a lot more options these days for local seminaries.

Absolutely don't send to BY Intensive unless your daughter plans on being a BY teacher for less than 10K a year.

However, there's a seminary in Lakewood that is very warm, solid program, there's also the New York seminary that is for very academic girls. Bulka for those who want college, and I believe there are others if anyone else can chime in.

Also, coming from certain areas (Brooklyn, Lakewood) it's much more accepted to skip seminary. It's not nearly the red flag it is from other places

When you say local, do you mean US or in the tristate area? Because with room and board it does add up...

PinkFridge

Mon, Nov 12 2018, 6:11 am

amother wrote:

Please, be honest, all of u whose dd go to seminary would u choose a girl who went to seminary for ur son to date over a girl who didnt attend seminary??

Depends on the son, but absolutely. Did and will.

amother

Beige

Mon, Nov 12 2018, 6:51 am

Posting as a parent, I sent knowing it is $30,000 for 10 months of summer camp, with holy site visits thrown in, and you're supporting jewish families who live in israel, so...mitzva!

Cost is same for in town sems because transportation or living costs plus makeup and wardrobe. If it cuts a year off college, and you can take off another year with your 12th grade college credits, you break even for a general BA. Public or secular undergrad is looking less appealing for a frum girl in today's climate.

Your child gets to delay the scrabble to get a career and chosson, needing to be "on" all the time bc everyone is checking her out for shidduchim. Also, learning a little ahavas yisroel, that hers is not the only approach to Torah and a little connection with the holy land is great.

I don't buy the maturation argument. Maturity may come at that age, with any independent experience. Most of us grow up when we must take responsibility for ourselves. I think cutting the financial strings would mature our girls right up, sem doesnt do that well.

To learn the hashkafa of a sem, ask the girls who went to sem, not the sem or your HS, and not the girls the sem picks. If you feel it's Kool aid, don't apply that school. Yes, you may find yourself with very limited options, but it's your choice in the end.

There's Michlala and its progeny, but if a less BY school is too modern for you, there's also a 6 month sem, and Touro Israel options.

Good luck. It's not great, but you may decide to send even though it is summer camp.

I think the greater concern here is the lack of Jewish connection and education in BY HS. They have gotten lazy, relying on sem to address big topics, hashkafa and halacha. It's sad.

amother

Denim

Mon, Nov 12 2018, 6:57 am

I'm gonna be very, very honest here.
My oldest DD went to seminary mainly because a.she wanted to b.the school put a lot of pressure on the girls and parents c.we were told she would have a lot of difficulty getting a shidduch without going. And there are already some strikes against us shidduchim wise, so we didn't stand a chance. With those three things, we caved. No, we can't afford it, but she spent her own money while there, we borrowed from family, and we went without some things the year she went.
Ok, she's been back a year. She came back frummer than frum. Had to buy her all new clothes because all of hers "weren't tznius enough." (Don't worry, I had her buy a lot of them). Not tznius enough meant that they weren't 4 inches below the knee. She wears shells under EVERYTHING because no neckline is high enough for her. Davens three times a day, even now, two years later. Reads no secular literature at all, and she used to be a huge reader. And the clincher -- looks down at us, a perfectly nice frum family, as less frum than she is. Looks down on her father for not learning enough. Though he works like a dog. Looks down on her brother for wanting Adidas pants. Looks down on her sister for not davening long enough. Looks down on me for watching YouTube. Has turned down shidduchim because the guy has been known to wear a blue shirt, or if he is taking some college courses while in Yeshiva.
Barf.
My next DD is there now. Again, lots of pressure, Again, borrowed money. She is very different from DD1. She is in a very good seminary but is turned off by the classes. She feels like their trying to convince her that there's only one way to be -- learn forever, live in EY, blah blah blah. She's sent to do chesed at some kollel couple who live very nicely thanks very much because mommy and daddy are supporting them, but she has to fold their laundry because that's a chessed. She asked to be placed at a family she knows whose husband is in a very intense college program and wife works three jobs (lovely frum people), but no, their not worthy of her chessed according to the seminary. She's loving EY but really not into seminary at all. For this I've sacrificed and spent money?
Seminary is a big fat crock, and the reason why it's perpetuated is so we stupid Americans can support Americans in EY who work for the seminaries. G-d knows how many people would be without a living if seminary in EY suddenly was no longer in vogue.
Honest enough for you?

amother

Cerise

Mon, Nov 12 2018, 7:35 am

I can't speak as a mom because my kids are way too young. I was lucky to get 2 years of sem and I'm very grateful for that. Made lots of new friends, experienced yerushalayim, it made me grow up and become more independent. Hashkafically didn't change me but if I can afford it I'd send my kids to Israel. If I can't afford it then not... Wouldn't get a mortgage on the house for that. But it also depends on the kid. Some just get into trouble and blow their parents money like it grows on trees. If that would be the type of kid I had..then I'd rather have her work and become responsible.

amother

Pewter

Mon, Nov 12 2018, 9:04 am

amother wrote:

Im posting as a daughter. The sem experience may have been destroyed by (some people who go and some people who teach but more so ) technology, phones, internet etc

Personally I gained alot, I say it was the roof to the foundation and building built prior by my Hs and home. It helped me have the understanding of why we do what we do and where I wana head in life.

And yea for my brothers in shidduchim my parents want a girl who attended sem they feel if not she missed out on something...he needs more than a high school girl and more than an american sem girl, needs someone who left her surrondings for a year to learn and grow...

And I wonder... what are you calling kool aid?? Where I went to sem most of what we were taught is torah textual, is that kool aid??

let me guess. There's probably a whole list of additional things that he "needs", on top of a girl who went to seminary in E"Y. It probably has alot to do with her father's bank account.....

Chayalle

Mon, Nov 12 2018, 9:24 am

I went to seminary in E"Y for two years (gasp) and for various reasons, I feel like it was the right choice for me. Nothing to do with shidduchim (my in-laws for sure could care less). Maybe some peer pressure, because I did go to a high school where a high percentage of the students go to E"Y for seminary, but that had little to do with my desire to go. I definitely did not need to learn to be more independent - I knew how to cook, do my own laundry, care for kids, etc...way before I went, and I paid most of my own way going (so did not bankrupt my parents.)

As a parent though, my kids are their own selves, and they are not me. My oldest did not choose to go, and B"H she's quite a capable young lady. Those who feel that a girl who stays in the US won't gain that independence must be talking about girls who don't know how to take care of themselves in the first place. My daughter is mature, independent, and self-aware. She attended a local seminary, and went to E"Y for two weeks as part of the program (and loves E"Y, and would totally live there if she could afford it...) She had a really great seminary year, despite it being (mostly) on American soil and much less $$$ than a seminary abroad.

I have a high school senior, and we are still on the fence. She's her own self, and there are good reasons to go, and good reasons to stay behind. We're going thru the process, and if she goes, it will be because we came to the conclusion that it's the right choice for her, and if she stays, it would be for the same reason.

I don't find that my oldest's shidduch opportunities are in any way hampered by her not having gone to E"Y for seminary (newsflash!) and if I learned anything in the home I grew up in, it's that Hashem is in charge of shidduchim, and he doesn't need my 20K+ help (seminary tuition) to marry off my girls.

amother

Cerise

Mon, Nov 12 2018, 9:31 am

Chayalle wrote:

I agree 100%. It has to be done for the right reasons. For me it was awesome because I was overly attached to my mom and I needed to leave the nest. As the youngest it was necessary for me and for my mom. It was hard but I met so many nice families and it helped my self esteem because I realized I don't need my dad to fix every single tiny problem.. I can do it myself. Honestly if I hadn't gone I would have become a disastrous wife.

naturalmom5

Mon, Nov 12 2018, 9:32 am

amother wrote:

Unless you learned Gam' inside and know where the halacha is derived and how, it is not called "LEARNING".. Its called indoctrination

amother

Hotpink

Mon, Nov 12 2018, 9:57 am

amother wrote:

If only the concept of allowing for individual choices would exist in our worlds. Just look at some posts in this thread. Posters are actually stating that not going to sem affects your shidduchim. This type of uniformity doesn't allow people to be who they are, and forces people into decisions they would never otherwise make.

If only girls would be able to decide upon seminary based on their own needs.

If only yeshiva boys would be able to decide the path of their lives based on their skills and characters.

If only girls were taught the multiple paths of Torah and allowed to choose what spiritually works best for them.

If only .................

Imo, this push to conformity and uniformity is a core issue of so many unnecessary troubles in our society.

amother

Dodgerblue

Mon, Nov 12 2018, 10:03 am

dancingqueen wrote:

Got it. But there are plenty of seminaries that don’t have that as their guiding hashkafah.

Not Bais Yaakov ones, which are the ones that the girls I know all went to, and the one I went to.

DVOM

Mon, Nov 12 2018, 10:23 am

My kids are not old enough to be graduating from high school (plus they're all boys, so no seminary for us!) but I can tell you about my own seminary experience:

I didn't realize it at the time, but today, as an adult, I can appreciate the financial sacrifice it must have been for my parents to send me, and I'm really grateful they did. Why did I go to seminary? Most of my high school class went to seminary, and I just followed the crowd. It didn't even occur to me that I wouldn't go. It had little to do with shidduchim or spiritual growth... it just was what everyone did.

I had a really wonderful time. I learned a lot about self care and independence. I made some wonderful friends that I still consider my close friends today. My seminary was part of a larger conglomerate of seminaries that catered to all sorts, so I was able to meet and interact with Jewish women from all walks of life, which was eye opening and enriching.

I loved (LOVED LOVED LOVED) being in Israel. I spent hours walking in the old city. I loved spending shabbosim all over the place, getting to see how other families lived.

But

I rarely chose to go to class. The party line pushing long time learning, sacrifice, guilt and punishment really bothered me. I can remember a teacher telling a story of children who'd chosen to kill themselves during the holocaust rather than (this part was insinuated) be forced into prostitution, and the teacher glorifying their choice. I raised my hand and told the teacher that I don't find this sort of story inspiring. That I might not have made the same choice. That the story was sad and disturbing and awful, but that I wasn't sure what she wanted us to learn from it. Oh boy, did I get it from the school administration after that one.

I was also disturbed by what I saw as a certain holier than thou attitude towards my parents, who after all were the ones to send me to seminary in the first place. There were so many speeches focused on how to 'keep your growth' when returning home, it made it sound like I would be returning to a spiritual minefield, instead of the very warm, safe, healthy, loving, spiritual and supportive home I'd grown up in. There were a few classes and teachers who were brilliant and sincere, and those I attended scrupulously.

I did some fairly risky things. I have good memories about most of them, and most were pretty harmless, but I think it's worth mentioning that if your daughter has an independent/wild streak, there is plenty of shenanigans to get up to when your far away from home. My friends and I snuck out of seminary many nights. I was only one floor up and could easily hop down from my mirpeset. We didn't do anything too crazy. We loved going to all night kumzitz/fabrangins in the old city or taking a bus to the beach or finding some local gals (and guys embarrassed

) to play pick up soccer with, or joining a political rally, who cares what the actual politics were. It didn't occur to me at the time that befriending strangers and being out of my bed in the middle of the night when the people who were responsible for me did not know where I was could be dangerous. And in truth, nothing bad ever happened. But still, just be aware that these types of stuff could very well be how your daughter is spending her seminary year.

amother

Orange

Mon, Nov 12 2018, 10:31 am

Here's a perspective that is different than what I've read so far, perhaps.

I grew up MO (centrist, I would say).
Went to the local co-ed Hebrew day school from age 3 till I graduated high school.
Had no interest in going to Israel after HS.
In my senior year, one of my trusted teachers thought I should go. She saw growth potential in me. Knowing my strong ability for textual learning and Judaic studies, she recommended one of the more 'academic' seminaries. I didn't have a very strong sense of self back then so when my teacher said, You should go, I said "OK".
It was the best decision of my life.

Yes, there were times that I suspected we were being brainwashed. B"H I guess my sense of self was stronger than I thought because I was able to hear certain things and then say, "That's not for me".
But I grew in mitzvos, hashkafa, and the entire life I've created for myself over the past 20 years is an outgrowth of that one single year.

I married a guy who went to right-wing yeshivos. No doubt he is my bashert but what would have happened if I hadn't changed?
Now we are living in a wonderful community with a whole mix of people. I get along with everyone because I came from one thing but now I'm another, so I relate to everybody.
My kids go to Bais Yaakov and yeshiva and know more then I ever did at their age about our religion.
I thank Hashem for guiding me to the place I needed to be to become who I am today, and to raise the family I am privileged to have.

amother

Lawngreen

Mon, Nov 12 2018, 10:32 am

Posting as a daughter.

My parents sent me to seminary for the same reason that they sent all my brothers to learn in Israel after high school. They felt that a year away from home, learning only Torah subjects, was very important before college.

Seminary was an amazing growth experience for me. It's the reason I have been living in Israel for the last 14 years.
In seminary, I was able to explore, analyze, debate and experience realities I could not have experienced living in my New York cocoon at home.
My seminary was a BY seminary that was very text based. We were not served any "Kool Aid" Our teachers taught us to appreciate Torah and Eretz Yisroel.

As someone who hosts many seminary girls, I just have to say that if your daughter is easily influenced by negative influences, don't send her to seminary. I know girls who managed to sneak smart phones into seminary and used social media so that they and their friends could sneak out and meet guys.

amother

Lawngreen

Mon, Nov 12 2018, 10:35 am

I forgot to mention that I got more college credits for my year in seminary than if I would have actually gone to college that year, so seminary ended up saving my parents money.

amother

Lilac

Mon, Nov 12 2018, 10:41 am

DVOM, I had to smile at your post. It reminded of the story I heard about a man whose son learned in some far off city. and he took a train to get there, visited his son's dorm room and saw his neatly made bed and turned right around and went home. Because if his room was neat he was sure his son was learning well. I could never understand how a loving father would pass up an opportunity to hug and smile at his child and tell him how proud he was. This story was SO glorified and the only thing I could think was "what a jerk."

It took a long time for me to realize that not every story is true, not every teacher knows what they're talking about. And really true gedolim don't behave this way.

I know in my community many ppl believe that derech eretz means this utter respect and acceptance of teachers and rebbes. But I try to teach my children that they need to take e/thing with a grain of salt. And be respectful and polite but be able to pick out what doesn't make sense and discard it.

Fox

Mon, Nov 12 2018, 10:56 am

tigerwife wrote:

Waiting for Fox to chime in. I wonder if you can find one her essays on this topic.

Oh, dear! I really need to sort myself out, as they say. At 120, I"YH, the hespedim are going to be all about politics, seminary and handbags. One of my sons-in-law will be sniveling as he speaks, saying, "Ma's kitchen was falling apart and the sukkah was sometimes up in December, but no one in our family ever carried a fake Louis Vuitton bag."

___________________________

Well, here goes:
DH and I accidentally became a shtikl famous in what I'll call the "pro-choice seminary movement" about 5 or 6 years ago. I wrote a lot about it on Imamother and as a result was contacted by a writer for a feature in Mishpacha.

My DH continues to be very active, and we typically start getting 20-30 calls a month during the period of seminary applications and acceptances. Almost all are from men, and a majority of the men are in tears at some point. My DH typically spends an hour or so on each call, and at times he has had to contact Hatzolah or other resources because he felt there was a possibility that the father might be a danger to himself as a result of the pressure to pay for seminary.

How did we stumble into this problem?
For those of you who know me from Imamother or IRL, you know I have 3 DDs: Clementine, Druscilla, and Prunella. Clementine was homeschooled for high school and had no interest in seminary. She's now working as a BCBA in Brooklyn, btw; just turned 24; and is single. All inquiries welcome!

Druscilla and Prunelle, identical twins, went to the local BY high school. When the first "seminary meeting" for parents was called for the beginning of their 12th grade year, DH went. We assumed it would be an "is seminary right for your DD"-type thing.

Um, no. Other posters have described the atmosphere. It wasn't that the principals urged everyone to go -- they didn't conceive that there was even a question! And then proceeded to give advice on how to fill out financial aid forms to essentially mislead the government (it was still possible to get federal and state financial aid easily at that time).

What we discovered . . .
With twin daughters, we were looking at $40,000 just for tuition (2013). Add in plane tickets, spending money, clothes, gifts for hosts . . . Even if the girls contributed their savings, it was a huge amount of money. Our finances were tight at the time, and it would have meant going into significant debt with no clear way to pay it back.

As we researched all the alternatives, we got more and more jaded.

Based on our non-scientific survey, it appeared that approximately 50 percent of women felt they'd had a good experience, and 50 percent felt it had been relatively useless or even negative. That didn't seem like good odds for such a big investment.

We also found seminaries are huge profit-makers for their "owners." Unlike yeshivas, which do fundraising and will take boys who cannot pay the full amount, seminaries offer far less in the way of need-based assistance. Their non-profit status is often maintained by paying the owner and his family members exorbitant salaries in US dollars while paying non-related teachers relatively little.

In the Mishpacha article, an anonymous owner complained that, in addition to the salaries he and his family members received, his "profit" was only $90,000 a year -- after having explained that his seminary was strictly non-profit.

And, of course, we discovered that the debt was killing people. Rabbi Shlomo Simon, a financial counselor for Chicago's Chesed Fund, told us that after wedding expenses, seminary was the top reason families found themselves in unsustainable credit card debt. Wedding expenses, he also told us, were often a problem not because of lavish weddings but because the cost was piggybacking on debt acquired in seminary.

The Posek Rules
The rav whom we consult with our shailos, Rabbi Shmuel Fuerst, sh"lita, the Agudah Dayan of the Midwest, has poskined on seminar attendance:

He has stated that if one is receiving scholarship assistance for younger children in day schools, one may not use one's income to send a daughter to seminary in Israel. In situations where a girl's individual situation suggests that attending seminary is needed for her spiritual development, he will assist in raising whatever money is necessary beyond the parents' resources.

While Rabbi Fuerst had made this statement from the podium at an Agudath Israel convention, it was not widely publicized. Surprise, surprise! When my DH began publicizing it and even circulating the tape of Rabbi Fuerst's speech, you can imagine how popular we were in certain circles. Rolling Eyes

The Outcome
Druscilla and Prunella did not go to seminary. Druscilla was resentful because her friends were going, but Prunella didn't mind as much. Both spent the year working in child care-type jobs, and Prunella took an online graphic arts course.

After a year, each got slightly better jobs, and by the following year, Druscilla had decided to go to nursing school (she'll finish this coming May) and Prunella had a full-time job with benefits in the graphic arts field and had developed a part-time photography business.

Both are married, and to my knowledge, the question of seminary never came up. Of course, you never know who rejected you, but we were literally never even asked why they didn't go or questioned about it. It's possible our reputation proceeded us, but if so, that's fine. If someone is so conformist that they'll go into serious debt just because everyone else is doing something, it would not have been the kind of match we wanted. Druscilla's husband works, and Prunella's husband learns full-time.

What about their friends who attended seminary? A couple enjoyed it, and one -- a very academically-oriented girl -- really loved it. At least two hated it, and one came home early. While you never know what's inside someone's heart, I haven't seen any lasting changes in hashkafa from any of these girls.

Should anyone go to seminary?
Sure. If you're paying full tuition for your other kids, can afford it, and have family or friends in EY who can add a layer of supervision, then go for it. If your daughter is struggling hashkafically and a particular seminary has been recommended that might help her, then absolutely! I'll even make a donation to help.

But if you're being pressured by principals and teachers or by the "everybody" lobby, then let me give you some advice:

I am tired of seeing my DH emerge from his office on winter evenings, shaken up by an emotional call from another Jewish father and husband who is being pressured to come up with $20,000-$30,000 he doesn't have and can't figure out how to get -- all for what amounts to a 10-month grand tour.

I am tired of late night calls from rabbonim, asking my DH to talk to congregants who have confided in them that the financial pressure of seminary is wrecking their shalom bayis because their wives and daughters claim their chances for shidduchim will be ruined if they don't go to seminary.

And after a couple of months of that each winter, I am tired of coming on Imamother or reading in Jewish papers everyone's shock and disgust that Jews commit financial crimes. Really? Seminary costs aren't the only reason people commit financial crimes, of course. But what do you think happens when a man hears, even implicitly, that he's a lousy father if he can't come up with $30,000 to ensure his beloved baby girl's future?

If you can afford it or your daughter has saved money for it, sure. If your daughter needs it, sure. But if not, teach your daughter the one lesson she won't get from seminary: you don't sacrifice your family's financial and mental health on the altar of "but everybody does it."

chaiz

Mon, Nov 12 2018, 11:05 am

Fox wrote:

The Posek Rules
The rav whom we consult with our shailos, Rabbi Shmuel Fuerst, sh"lita, the Agudah Dayan of the Midwest, has poskined on seminar attendance:

He has stated that if one is receiving scholarship assistance for younger children in day schools, one may not use one's income to send a daughter to seminary in Israel. In situations where a girl's individual situation suggests that attending seminary is needed for her spiritual development, he will assist in raising whatever money is necessary beyond the parents' resources.

While Rabbi Fuerst had made this statement from the podium at an Agudath Israel convention, it was not widely publicized. Surprise, surprise! When my DH began publicizing it and even circulating the tape of Rabbi Fuerst's speech, you can imagine how popular we were in certain circles. Rolling Eyes

Would you by any chance have the recording of Rabbi Feurst's speech and post it here?