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Can I daven shacharis at 4 pm
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pizza4




 
 
 


Post  Fri, Jun 14 2019, 1:08 am
I don't know if Birkas hashachar is the most important but that's what I try to say. I made an alarm on my phone to remember to daven before work and meanwhile it's working great!
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bobeli




 
 
 


Post  Fri, Jun 14 2019, 1:14 am
I can't look at it now but in the artscroll women's sidur there is a chart of tfilas in "importance " order
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mishpacha1




 
 
 


Post  Fri, Jun 14 2019, 2:19 am
amother [ Mint ] wrote:
I dont want to derail the Shachris at 4pm question but,

When one davens in the morning, are Brachos the most important?

Until what time can Brachos be said?

What should women daven in order of importance, if they want to add more davening as time goes on, but they want to start with less, but the most important?


Brachos are definitely a big priority. They can be said anytime in the day (though morning is ideal).
This is what I think I remember for importance of davening (not the order of what is said but order of priority):
Most important: brachos, shema shemona esrei
Then Baruch sheamar, ashrei, yishtabach
Then rest of pesukei dezimrah
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mishpacha1




 
 
 


Post  Fri, Jun 14 2019, 2:24 am
amother [ Amber ] wrote:
Davening isn’t considered a Mitzvas Asei Shehazman Gramma. I don’t remember exactly why but I think because you can always Daven. Everyone definitely says you must say Shevach Bakasha and Hodaah. Either way if you click on that link it’s pretty clear in that article.

Correct, the gemara says that you would think that it’s a mitzvah asei... but it’s not. Therefore there’s a machlokes of what you have to Daven, either shevach bakasha hodaah, or shacharis and Mincha. It’s originally a machlokes of rambam/ ramban. Even according to the Opinion of davening shacharis/ mincha, many authorities say raising children gives you leniency, as it is like caring for a sick person.
OP, my advice is to talk to Hashem using those three- praising, asking for what you need, thanking. If you can, in the morning say brachos. If not, say when you can, and if you have time in the afternoon, daven mincha.
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mishpacha1




 
 
 


Post  Fri, Jun 14 2019, 2:28 am
One more point, davening tashlumin- is a second mincha- is really not so simple for women. It has to be a case where one regularly davens that tefillah (so they would daily say shacharis) and they were truly an oneis- or forced not to be able to. In seminary I woke up late for a final but before chatzos and asked a rav after if I could do tashlumin and he said that that’s not oneis- it has to be really completely out of your hands.
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amother




Tan


Post  Fri, Jun 14 2019, 7:36 am
mishpacha1 wrote:
One more point, davening tashlumin- is a second mincha- is really not so simple for women. It has to be a case where one regularly davens that tefillah (so they would daily say shacharis) and they were truly an oneis- or forced not to be able to. In seminary I woke up late for a final but before chatzos and asked a rav after if I could do tashlumin and he said that that’s not oneis- it has to be really completely out of your hands.


Women are mechuyev to daven. It's a pretty clear halacha. The exact form it has to take can vary. See articles: http://dinonline.org/2011/04/1.....uld-daven/
https://torah.org/torah-portio.....772-vaera/

I daven regularly all the daveniing. My husband is pretty makpid that women should daven. I've been told that if I miss a davening, I need to repeat s"e. You don't get to face tashulmin if it's mazid or sometimes even shogeg. I think different poskim deal with ones differently. The few times I missed ( I was super busy or forgot), I was told to daven twice. I don't think it applies when you don't daven regularly.
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amother




Tan


Post  Fri, Jun 14 2019, 7:51 am
For whatever it's worth, the following tricks have worked for me. Though it sounds like op has a harder family life.
1. If possible, daven shacharis while kids are sleeping. It usually works, but I'm a morning person so I don't mind getting up really early. Some years, I routinely daven right after alos. It's not a great time to daven, but it's better than nothing.
2. If children are awake, I talk and start and stop in the middle of davening. It's better than nothing. I try not to interrupt shma and sh"e.
3. Daven mincha when kids are out of house, sleeping, or (in the summer if I'm lucky) at a time when my husband is home.
I have been told that a quick sh"e without kavana is better than nothing. So some years, that's what I do
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amother




Violet


Post  Fri, Jun 14 2019, 7:55 am
[quote="doctorima"]I believe the latest time for davening the Shemoneh Esrei for Shacharis is chatzos (midday), which today in NYC was 11:40 AM. In the afternoon you can daven Shemoneh Esrei for mincha, and most if not all of the birkos hashachar as well if you haven't said them.

I'm pretty sure that davening twice is only for men who were obligated to daven and missed. It may apply to a woman who took upon herself to daven shacharis every morning and missed a day, but it doesn't sound like that's your case, and I wouldn't do so before asking a Rav.[/quote]

I am really not sure, but I think it is Beit Shami that holds until Chatzot, but we pasken like Beit Hillel which states the end of the 4th cheleck. I would definitely check a reliable source. I believe that even if a woman's chiuv to daven is different than a mans, times are still the same.

Regarding times and priority of tifilot, I follow the woman's Artscroll.

Just so you know you are not alone, I too find it really hard to daven (timewise).
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ra_mom




 
 
 


Post  Fri, Jun 14 2019, 8:40 am
Shema and Shemona Esrei can be davened at any time.
Go with that.
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amother




Ecru


Post  Fri, Jun 14 2019, 8:53 am
The munkatch rabbi davens shachris in the afternoon sometimes the old Viznitz rebbetzin sometimes davened till shkiah. I was told I can daven a whole day and that’s usually what happens I end up davening at 5 pm, I do say brochos in the morning.
Nothing is clear cut!
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goodmorning




 
 
 


Post  Fri, Jun 14 2019, 9:06 am
amother [ Violet ] wrote:
I am really not sure, but I think it is Beit Shami that holds until Chatzot, but we pasken like Beit Hillel which states the end of the 4th cheleck. I would definitely check a reliable source. I believe that even if a woman's chiuv to daven is different than a mans, times are still the same.

Regarding times and priority of tifilot, I follow the woman's Artscroll.

Just so you know you are not alone, I too find it really hard to daven (timewise).


L'chatchila, one should daven before the end of the fourth halachic hour (sha'a zmanios), which is the time known as sof zman tefillah. B'dieved, if one did not, one can daven until chatzos, which is the end of the sixth halachic hour.

As per myzmanim, sof zman tefillah in NYC today is 10:25 and chatzos is 12:56.
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amother




Tan


Post  Fri, Jun 14 2019, 9:06 am
amother [ Ecru ] wrote:
The munkatch rabbi davens shachris in the afternoon sometimes the old Viznitz rebbetzin sometimes davened till shkiah. I was told I can daven a whole day and that’s usually what happens I end up davening at 5 pm, I do say brochos in the morning.
Nothing is clear cut!


Chassidim and litvish have very different attitudes to zmanim and preparing for davening. Best policy is to ask your Rav.
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goodmorning




 
 
 


Post  Fri, Jun 14 2019, 9:08 am
ra_mom wrote:
Shema and Shemona Esrei can be davened at any time.
Go with that.


Technically, there is a gap between chatzos (which is the latest time for Shachris) and mincha gedola (earliest time for mincha). Today, in NYC, the gap is from 12:56 until at least 1:26 (using the earliest calculation). One should not daven Shmone Esrei during this time.
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imasoftov




 
 
 


Post  Fri, Jun 14 2019, 9:09 am
amother [ Violet ] wrote:
I am really not sure, but I think it is Beit Shami that holds until Chatzot, but we pasken like Beit Hillel which states the end of the 4th cheleck. I would definitely check a reliable source. I believe that even if a woman's chiuv to daven is different than a mans, times are still the same.

Mishna Berachot 4:1 says that the time for Shacharit is until (halachic) noon while Rabbi Yehuda says until the fourth hour. The halacha combines both views, according to Orach Chaim 89:1, the ideal time is until the fourth hour (a chelek is an 1080th of an hour, 3-1/3 seconds and appears in the announcement of the Molad in Kiddush Hachodesh) but if one did not say it by then one may still say it until (halachic) noon.
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srbmom




 
 
 


Post  Fri, Jun 14 2019, 9:13 am
To all with questions I suggest the book Rigshei Lev by Rabbi Menachem Nissel.
He explains why davening is so important for women and then goes through the halachos very clearly. He also has a section on if you have this much time, daven this, if you have a little more time, daven this...
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