Is living an "authentic life" contrary to "Torah life"

amother

Seagreen

Fri, Nov 16 2018, 1:36 am

About women running businesses....well many do....does it affect their family....certainly to some extent!

I had a child, of my business owner friend, by me. He did not stop talking. Told me he's so happy that I'm listening because his parents are too busy to listen to him. Successful to the world.....but not by the opinion of the child, who needed a listening ear!

amother

Lawngreen

Fri, Nov 16 2018, 2:25 am

For me, living a Torah observant life is the "authentic" life and following my dreams. I'm a gioret, see? I put a lot of effort into converting, it changed my whole life and I left my country of origin to move to a more Jewish place (Israel).
I've got a university degree and work as a professional. Keeping Torah is no obstacle to that here in Israel, at least. Having little kids makes working more difficult, but as others have said, it's a global women's problem, not just a Jewish problem.
Speaking of kids, they are part of living my dreams as well - I had to undergo fertility treatments to have them, again, totally my choice and my dream.
For me, being a Jewish mom in Israel is "the dream" and "the authentic life".
Do I have a great impact on the world? Maybe not. But you don't have to be famous to do Hashem's will and live a fulfilled life.

I realize that some close-knit Jewish communities have social norms that are stifling. To any woman who feels stuck in such a community, I can only recommend to either be a rebel and start a new trend in studies or work, or else, move and join a different community, within the framework of Torah.

allthingsblue

Fri, Nov 16 2018, 6:41 am

From what I've read, research jobs require lots and lots and lots of time, which will come at the expense of relationships. People need to prioritize - career or relationships? It's not just frum people. It's everyone.
It's impossible to fully achieve in both worlds (family and world achievements) at the same time.

PinkFridge

Fri, Nov 16 2018, 6:54 am

Maya wrote:

Perhaps, but Ruchy Freier is hardly a game changer in greater society, and also, being a judge is not exactly all consuming or a career that’s not family friendly.

Getting there was probably tough. Those first few years of practice, to really make it? I know a female professional - in this case, an architect - who thinks it's a tough job for women because of those first years, and possibly beyond.

PinkFridge

Fri, Nov 16 2018, 6:59 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

I was waiting for an opportunity to post this, and here it is:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/w.....9020/

It's not only frum women that have this problem, it's women, period.

And I was waiting for an opportunity to bring up Stanley Lieber, aka Stan Lee. He did something that is considered mega in society, in how he shaped the culture, and I suspect that there were times his professional life got really intense, maybe at times at the expense of his personal life, I have no idea.

And he seems to be getting the same recognition and eulogizing that some Nobel Prize winners would get.

Reminds me of something that was in a Yated a month or so ago, about someone who wanted to do some serious mountain climbing, and Rav Auerbach, shlit"a, mentioned that chazal talk about other mountains - Torah, the yetzer hara, don't remember all of them.

My point is, I'm not going to to say that it's impossible to have it all, or to do big things, and I would even say that some people should totally go for it. For anyone here who wonders if she could have been a contender, know that there are still opportunities for true greatness, even if the mass recognition may not be till the next world.

PinkFridge

Fri, Nov 16 2018, 7:02 am

amother wrote:

Welcome! But it's not just who you are now, it's the transformative journey of your converting and what you did to have your family. I think that some of our posters or readers are wishing for some great life journey and experience. And as Abie Rothenberg says, "What you're looking for, is right there at your door. Believe me when I tell you, friends, you couldn't ask for more."

sushilover

Fri, Nov 16 2018, 7:10 am

Maya wrote:

I get what you’re saying, OP.
As much as people want to claim that the Torah allows for making a difference in the world, the reality is that very few religious Jews make it into those arenas. There has to be a reason for that, and it’s not because of our lack of capabilities or ambition.

Some of it is Torah, like not being able to work on Shabbos and all the days of yomim tovim , and some of it is the religious culture.

My opinion is that if someone wants to be a game changer of the kind you mention, he or she would have to compromise on some of the Torah and/or some of the culture.

I totally agree. We want to believe in the girl power! We can have it all! myths, but in reality very few people can have it all. A frum person, and even more so a frum woman will always be forced to choose throughout their career, and those choices add up.
Do you choose a more prestigious career, or one that is more family friendly? Go to Harvard or Touro? Will you start dating while in college? Will you take a job in an area without a frum community?
Someone can choose the more frum choices in all of the above and still make a huge difference in the world , but there is no denying that they probably would have had a lot more opportunities if they chose the career over frumkeit.

That's not to say you can't have a fulfilling life, OP. I truly believe that a stay at home mother can be more fulfilled than Steve Jobs.

zaq

Fri, Nov 16 2018, 7:52 am

You know, I rather resent your making a distinction between an “authentic “life and a “Torah “life. They are not mutually exclusive. Furthermore, what makes a dream of becoming surgeon general of the United States or the first woman to land on the moon any more “authentic“ than a dream of becoming preschool morah of the year at Bais Yaakov of Little Tyrwhitt? Or a dream of becoming “Best mommy in the whole wide world” to 14 children? If you are doing what you think is right and good, how is that not “authentic“?

For that matter, I think the entire term “authentic life“ is condescending and absurd. The only people who are not living an authentic life are those who are deceiving the world by presenting themselves as something that they are not. In some cases, their duplicity may even be a good thing. A person who does not believe in a Torah life but is living such a life out of love of a spouse who does believe, for example, is not doing a bad thing. Furthermore, one can hope that mitoch shelo lishmah yavo lishmah, and this is a good thing.

amother

Blush

Fri, Nov 16 2018, 8:22 am

To me, living authentically is to act in alignment with my deepest truth. It takes a lot of self reflection and self knowing. Not as easy as it sounds. Society/culture prefers that we do not live authentically.
Think back to when you were a child. Did your caretakers or teachers support you in being authentically you?

Raisin

Fri, Nov 16 2018, 8:38 am

Why do you have to discover a cure for cancer to change the world? Plenty of other fulfilling and wonderful careers out there. Where would we be without garbage collectors or kindergarten teachers?

The reality is, it is very hard for any women, frum or not, to get to the top of her field. Many who do have few or no children, or are not married at all.

zaq

Fri, Nov 16 2018, 9:36 am

And why do you have to change the world to be considered living an authentic lifestyle?

In any case, the term is meaningless without a modifier. You can live an authentic Amish life, an authentic Navajo life, an authentic LA life ...maybe not. With apologies to all you Angelenas, LA is said to be the embodiment of phoniness, so an authentic LA life would be a phony one, a paradox that makes my head spin.

amother

Pink

Fri, Nov 16 2018, 10:02 am

Full disclosure, I was not raised frum and I think that makes a difference with my perceptions.

I agree with Amother blushes interpretation of an authentic life. It can be different for different people. And a Torah life does not mean an inauthentic life but is it for everybody?

Yes, women can be frum and have careers. Nobody is arguing that. But there are segments of the frum population in which women are married off at 18 or 19 and the subject of career never comes up. Is the majority going to argue that is an "authentic" life?

Was Albert Einstein living an authentic life? What if he were frum?
What about Jonas Salk? Would he have invented the polio vaccine if he were frum? Would he have had the time to devote to research while living a frum life? Perhaps Hashem would have decreed someone else to invent the vaccine.

I don't expect answers. These are not answerable questions in a finite way.

Sorry to those who are offended by my question.

amother

Tangerine

Fri, Nov 16 2018, 10:16 am

I was married at 18 and was a sahm. B'h, raised a very ehrliche family-wouldn't give up any of it. But now that they're grown, I feel some regret that I did not develop myself professionally- both because we need the money and it would be "authentic" to self actualize. I tell myself that you cant have it all.

sushilover

Fri, Nov 16 2018, 10:21 am

jewishmommy1 wrote:

Sometimes when I really want to do something I think to myself, at the end of the day, my neshama came into this world to accomplish something holy. Will this course of action help me achieve that?

That's my bar of "authentic".

That's really beautiful.

OOTforlife

Fri, Nov 16 2018, 10:36 am

Time is finite, resources are finite, people's mental and physical energies are finite. Commitments to a certain level of achievement in one area will limit what is available to be put towards achievement in other areas.

Perhaps what bothers you really OP, is not so much that frum people are subject to certain constraints (just as all people are subject to certain constraints), but that you suspect many frum people are being forced or coerced into the constraints under which they live. Or at least are not in a position of being fully informed and freely committing to frum life.