Satmar Rabbi Aaron teitelbaum declares war on DOE

Mommyg8

Tue, Dec 04 2018, 10:33 pm

amother wrote:

Why on earth not? I teach him how to grocery shop, how to cook, how to change diapers, I fix his grammar mistakes (yes he did have somewhat of a secular education), and he teaches me all kinds of Torah concepts, learns with me etc.

Slategray, so your husband was allowed to have had a secular education but you are denying your children same thing?

No, I did not have to teach my husband how to grocery shop, how to cook, or how to change diapers. But even if I did have to, it is a skill that takes a few minutes to learn. Learning how to read and write takes a bit longer.

amother

Puce

Tue, Dec 04 2018, 10:35 pm

amother wrote:

Rabbi Yakov Bender of Darchei Torah just slammed the NY Times for their anti yeshiva article in relation to the new NYS Education Policy which affects excellent institutions such as his and Manhattan Girls High school. Both consistently ranked high by objective standards and far above public school ratings.
The lead of the NY Times article was ridiculing our not teaching evolution in frum schools.
A harbinger of what lies ahead.
An attack on the entire yeshiva school system as subpar.
I don't care what the NY Times write. I do care about government overreach and negative consequences even if "inspired" with a look to those who want to reform their own schools.
Good luck with the dinosaurs. And apes.

This can all go away quickly. Just have the yeshivas in question work out some sort of an acceptable agreement, and it will be old news very quickly.

By shouting from the podium, promoting false appearance, and misplaced hysteria, we are the ones pushing this agenda further.

Just adjust, fix and move on.

Mommyg8

Tue, Dec 04 2018, 10:38 pm

Ravenclaw wrote:

Am I weird? But I don’t see the issue with teaching evolution, albeit differently. I know someone from Bais Rochel Monsey And she said that they learnt it—and also the scientific rational explanation for why these scientists are wrong. Instead of hoping our kids never hear about evolution, why not show them the theory and then spend time pointing out the flaws in the theory and how we Jews disprove it?

Ravenclaw, my husband took the biology regent and did not learn about evolution. (I didn't take it because my school did not allow it). Many boys did well, some even got a 100. You don't have to teach it (you just have to know how to read the textbook).

amother

Puce

Tue, Dec 04 2018, 10:38 pm

Ravenclaw wrote:

I'm with you. I think this is the better way of teaching our children. Whenever in life they become exposed to this concept, they'll be equipped how to approach it. Otherwise, they'll wonder why is it being hidden and what more are they hiding from us.

tweek

Tue, Dec 04 2018, 10:40 pm

amother wrote:

Rabbi Yakov Bender of Darchei Torah just slammed the NY Times for their anti yeshiva article in relation to the new NYS Education Policy which affects excellent institutions such as his and Manhattan Girls High school. Both consistently ranked high by objective standards and far above public school ratings.
The lead of the NY Times article was ridiculing our not teaching evolution in frum schools.
A harbinger of what lies ahead.
An attack on the entire yeshiva school system as subpar.
I don't care what the NY Times write. I do care about government overreach and negative consequences even if supposedly "inspired" with a look to those who want to reform their own schools.
Good luck with the dinosaurs. And apes.

As I wrote earlier, I am not in favor of this particular effort and how it was brought about. I actually heard that there are many schools that are on a very high level (modern orthodox included) that are upset with yaffed because they dont think these guidelines are possible or helpful. Rabbi Zwiebel even said that moster apologized to one principal of such a school for creating trouble for him as that was not his intention. (Just repeating what was said at an Agudah meeting regarding this topic)
So once again we see that this whole yaffed situation just created a distraction and self righteousness that takes away from any real change that is really needed.

chestnut

Tue, Dec 04 2018, 10:44 pm

amother wrote:

Yes there are plenty of successful businessmen that they dont or didnt have a good English.
Come to my chasidish community, or read our chasidish community listing and I will
identify each one's occupation and you will GASP that they bring home a living wage!!
They attended the Moser's elementary school. Moser's siblings with eight or more children are earning a bigger wage than he does.
Chasidish communities in itself has an economy of it's own which by default creates businesses and services unique to our lifestyle. Hence you have business opportunities that are unique to our culture. Everything we wear, the kids play with, the transportation we use, the cars we lease, the kitchens we build, the seforim we buy, the tallisim we wear, the kippas we wear, the exploding Yiddish magazine racks, the food we eat, the shmura matzos we bake,
the workbooks created for our school systems, the sheitels/shpitzels/turbans/snoods,skirts, house shirts we wear, socks, pantyhose, the menoras we use, the havdala lecht, the shabbos candles, the 100's of yiddish toys and gimmicks and games, the badchan, the singers, the music, the caterers, the jewish contractors, the hundreds of people who arrange building dept permits, the insurance brokers, the aron hakodesh builders, the kashrus organization (trust me it is big business), the kallah gown places, the sister of the bride places. I could go on and on and on. We people have business opportunity my average Chinese neighbor does not have. I forgot to mention the production of mens chasidish clothing which probably feeds thousands of families.

Do you realize that it's only the owners of these businesses who profit, but workers live hand to mouth? As many businesses as there are around, there are many, many more employees than owners there.

Last edited by chestnut on Wed, Dec 05 2018, 12:55 am; edited 1 time in total

amother

Slategray

Tue, Dec 04 2018, 10:57 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

It's a shita, called Chinuch Al Taharas Hakodesh. Secular wisdom is a type of tumah that is refined into kedusha by being used for kedusha. I.e. using math to understand the timeline of the Mabul, using science to understand how Kiddush Hachodesh works, using English to explain a Torah concept to a less-observant friend. When not [yet] used for these purposes, they remain for the time being as tumah in the brain of the child.

Therefore I do not introduce any secular subjects as standalone. Any of those "pareve tumah" subjects are addressed only as they come up in Limudei Kodesh, which is plenty - they know basic math and science, and can read and write English.

As I explained previously, I have nothing against my children having a modicum of secular education as necessary. However, at this age, formal study is not necessary.

Think of it as an overdose of calories, resulting in the excess being stored as fat that needs to later be converted back to energy. I'd rather give the "calories" they need when they need them.

I will also disagree that reading and writing takes that long. For a reasonably intelligent person, learning a new alphabet and phonics structures is not overwhelming. True, they will make errors, but most people do, despite their education. If they can't speak the language at all, it will obviously be a much greater effort.

tweek

Tue, Dec 04 2018, 11:06 pm

amother wrote:

I will also disagree that reading and writing takes that long. For a reasonably intelligent person, learning a new alphabet and phonics structures is not overwhelming. True, they will make errors, but most people do, despite their education. If they can't speak the language at all, it will obviously be a much greater effort.

It may not take that long, but there is an ideal time slot in a child's development to accomplish this.

Learning to read and write a new language at an older age is much more difficult and will ironically result in more time being spent.

Mommyg8

Tue, Dec 04 2018, 11:07 pm

amother wrote:

Dear slategray, if this is your hashkafa and your shitah, and you believe in this, I will not argue with you. I try to be respectful of other people's religious viewpoints even if they are different than mine.

My only argument is one of practicality. You say that it's easy for a grown person to learn how to read and write - have you ever spoken to someone who had to do this? I did. It's really not as easy as you think it is. I suggest you speak to people who actually had to do this. Don't just assume.

ETA: Do you realize how demoralizing it is for a twenty year old man to start with C-A-T - cat? See Jane. See d!ck. See d!ck run. Seriously? And they usually never catch up.

Last edited by Mommyg8 on Tue, Dec 04 2018, 11:11 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Seagreen

Tue, Dec 04 2018, 11:09 pm

chestnut wrote:

Do you realize that it's only the owners of these business who profit, but workers live hand to mouth? As many businesses as there are around, there are many, many more employees than owners there.

do you realize that my husband can hardly find a Jewish worker. This, in Brooklyn where
tens of thousands orthodox Jewish men live?
Most of the chasidish men he deals with are his hundreds of vendors, insurance man, his commercial machine suppliers who oversee their non-Jewish repair men, plumbers , electrician and contractor.

Can you find me a Jewish worker that he is willing to pay $3000 a week to help him manage the business?

ectomorph

Tue, Dec 04 2018, 11:13 pm

amother wrote:

so interesting. Never heard it expressed like this. I agree

amother

Pewter

Tue, Dec 04 2018, 11:18 pm

amother wrote:

Has he tried hiring a woman?

crust

Tue, Dec 04 2018, 11:22 pm

amother wrote:

I would like to discuss your post with you.

You say; The transportation we use.
Do you know how much a taxi driver comes home with?
Do you know that for a trip to and from the city a bus driver gets $75?

Yes Mr. Monsey Trails and Mr. Owner of the taxi company make a living BH. 2 people off the list.

You say; The cars we lease. How many Jewish car leasings do you know of? 5 in your city?
Ok. Another 5 men off the list.

You say; The talisim we wear the kippas we wear.
Are you referring to Malchus Judaica? Best Embroidery? Lets remove another 10 Judaica manufacturers from the list.
Most of this is produced in China.

Do you mean the stores where Judaica is sold? If a cashier earns 20 an hour he is lucky.

The truth is that its hard to discuss this if we see different realities.
You see business owners. I see their employees.

amother

Ecru

Tue, Dec 04 2018, 11:23 pm

amother wrote:

Slategrey, your children obviously speak English at home, so they’re not starting from scratch when they need to enter the workforce or want to pursue higher education. Whereas for many in the chasidish community English is not spoken at home, and is effectively a foreign language to them.
There is no comparison.

Reading this post left me with a question - why don't you speak English at home as a small step towards resolving this crisis? Why blame it all on the schools when you have this easy tool at your disposal that you aren't using?

amother

Tangerine

Tue, Dec 04 2018, 11:28 pm

amother wrote:

Are you directing the question at me?
We only speak English at home. My son actually learned the yiddish language from cheder. This is not the case for many others.
I commented up thread about how I felt it was important for chasidish mothers to speak English at home and provide ample reading material.

Mommyg8

Tue, Dec 04 2018, 11:30 pm

amother wrote:

I just re-read your post, sorry that I missed this the first time around.

If your children know basic math and science, and can read and write English, they are way ahead of the children being discussed on this thread. I'm glad your children learned the basics by osmosis; most children don't, not even those from English-speaking homes. Most children do need to be formally taught. Either your children are really very exceptionally bright or there's something missing in your story ...

And many children are not exposed to English at all.