Would you allow your child to attend non-Jewish college?

amother

Teal

Sat, Dec 01 2018, 12:48 pm

I dont understand the prevalence of online colleges. Is it an American thing? A frum thing?
Are they anywhere nearly as respected as brick and mortar universities? Because it seems to me like a joke. First of all, if it's online you can just pay someone to do half your courses. Or if your dh is good at math and you arent, he can do your statistics exam for you. It's ridiculous. Unless it's all on skype and they watch you every step?
Second, it's not the same atmosphere. I've taken online courses (not for my degree), and there isnt the same intellectual back and forth that you have in a regular classroom. The online forums are a poor substitute.

amother

Lilac

Sat, Dec 01 2018, 3:09 pm

amother wrote:

It is a joke. It's usually single moms, frum people or people who aren't able to attend a real college who take those classes. And they don't look good in a CV. Noone will choose someone who studied online over someone who went to a real college. And that's a fact.

nylon

Sat, Dec 01 2018, 5:43 pm

It's an American thing, though not specifically a frum thing. I should point out that the UK pioneered the open university well before the Internet was a twinkle in someone's eye.

Like all distance education it can be very useful for people who are working or who need a program that isn't offered locally. But the quality is variable. And it can be a cash cow since they often charge as much as they do for in person classes. For me it was a convenient way to get some prerequisites that I didn't have from undergrad, but the quality wasn't as good as my in person degree.

Also, when people talk about politics and bias and the like, it really does vary by subject and topic as well as campus. The media isn't always the most accurate portrayal, and a lot of controversies involve student groups, not in class activities.

salamanca

Sat, Dec 01 2018, 7:21 pm

Cheiny: it is amazing that you would consider one person's "experience" to be considered proof. I hope you are never at the receiving end of such "proof". The reality of my son being in YU is not "scary for me". Do you think it is fair to label a school as a place where disgusting behavior is "prevalent" when it is not the case? That someone should slander it? Should I say that in (fill in the heavily populated frum town of your choice) it is widespread for frum businesses to cheat the government when only some are doing it? That prevalent=some! That in a particular seminary it is widespread for girls to act immodestly when that is just one person's experience? Heaven help us all from such "proof".

salamanca

Sat, Dec 01 2018, 7:34 pm

Also, where do you get the idea that anti-semitism is so pervasive? And all of the brainwashing? Unless someone is going to major in philosophy in a secular college (which is halachically questionable to say the least) in what classes are kids being brainwashed? None that my daughter (who is a junior) has taken. (I think kids can handle the evolution chapters in bio without becoming atheists!) I think the dangers lie in the social aspect, not the classes. If kids use no discretion in who they hang out and make friends with - then that is a problem.

amother

Copper

Sat, Dec 01 2018, 11:24 pm

amother wrote:

It depends. There are brick and mortar schools with top-notch distance programs. Especially in countries with large rural populations. I "attend" such a school in Canada.The actual institution has tens of thousands of students on campus in addition to several thousand distance students. The courses are identical and all exams are written at a local affiliated university. I must show up at the designated time with an ID and write the invigilated exam. My degree will be from "University of X", just like all of the thousands of grads who attended the brick and mortar institution.

Mommyg8

Sun, Dec 02 2018, 12:09 am

amother wrote:

Since many "real" colleges now have online programs so you may have no way of knowing if the classes were taken online or if they were taken "in class".

I have taken different online classes in different colleges, and the format of the class in different colleges can be extremely different. They all have one thing in common, though - they all require tons and tons and tons of writing. To the point that I found (as did many others who have done this) that online classes are actually harder and longer, to some degree.

As for the actual tests - in every online college that I have gone to the tests were only 50% of the grade, and the discussions and assignments made up the rest of the grade. So unless you are willing to pay a fortune to have someone else write the tons and tons of assignments, cheating on the tests will only get you so far.

Each college had a different method of dealing with tests. Some were just timed - hard if you are doing it on your own, but pretty easy to cheat if you are quick. Some were timed and had browser lock - um, I'm going to keep quiet about that. And some require actual proctoring through a webcam.

Thomas Edison classes were by far the most rigorous online classes I took. They required huge amounts of online postings, very involved homework, and very intense and critically graded papers. They also do online proctoring for their extremely hard tests. I only took two classes with them, so maybe I just got "unlucky" and other classes were easier.

The real truth is that it doesn't really matter if you got your undergrad degree through clepping, online classes, or B&M classes. If you are going for an undergraduate degree so you can get into grad school, does it really matter if you got an A, B, or C in calculus or you took a clep for a pass? (You can't take cleps or tests like that for pre-reqs, and the online classes in required prereq classes like biology and chemistry will make you wish you took them in class. And many graduate schools will not accept online classes for prereqs).

If you are looking for the college experience - maybe you'll miss out. But most of us frum women have gotten the "experience", if we wanted it, in seminary. But the knowledge? If you are doing it right and not cheating, it's exactly the same. IMHO.

Last edited by Mommyg8 on Sun, Dec 02 2018, 12:12 am; edited 1 time in total

amother

Puce

Sun, Dec 02 2018, 12:10 am

I attended a large public university with a minimal Jewish presence as a commuting student. I was pursuing a technical degree so I didn't take many humanities courses. The only time a humanities professor tried to influence me was when one English professor told me that I should major in English instead lol but when I told him no he didn't push it. I can't say that anyone tried to influence me to change religion either. In fact, one fall semester I arranged with the TA to make up some labs that I'd missed because of Yom Tov. During spring semester I saw the TA proselytizing (or as a classmate called it Bible-thumping) in the student union. I was worried he'd pressure me because I thought Christians always targeted Jews. But when he saw me he paused his shpiel and waved me on with a "G-d bless you".

My non-Jewish classmates shared their notes when I missed class for Yom Tov or Shabbos.

Once a student who wasn't Jewish asked me out, and I declined.

Being in college around people who weren't Jewish forced me to think about why I was Jewish in a way I hadn't really had to before. If anything, this strengthened my beliefs.

My daughter is commuting to a different large university, which also has almost no Jewish students. She is doing great there. I would prefer if my other children commute to school rather than live on campus though.

amother

Dodgerblue

Sun, Dec 02 2018, 12:38 am

I graduated from Columbia around 15 years ago. There was a very vibrant Jewish community. I roomed with frum girls, first on an all girls floor in the dorm and then in our own apartments in a university owned building. I ate my meals in the kosher dining area or in frum apartments or at catered communal meals. The only "rowdy" parties I went to were Shabbos meals with lots of zemiros sung rather loudly. DH also went to Columbia, but he did a joint YU/Columbia engineering program and we didn't meet in college. All of the friends we've kept in touch with from college have remained frum, many moving to the right of their families as part of the ongoing trend.

I have very fond memories of my time in college both academically and socially, and I would certainly encourage sending my children. By the time they'd be applying for college I would hope that we've instilled our values in them and have a good sense of who they are as people. If their foundations are shaky then they need to be shored up before being tested, and there are ways to do that. If they have a tendency to choose their friends unwisely then maybe a more religious setting or no dorm would be better. We don't have a great fear of the outside world because we live in it and teach our children how to navigate it rather then hide them from it and then turn them loose without preparation.

Mommyg8

Sun, Dec 02 2018, 12:43 am

Back to the original question:

I live in a community where unmarried children do not go to secular college.

But I myself went to a secular college fairly recently, so I think I'm qualified to weigh in on the pros and cons.

I did not encounter any anti-semitism. Maybe some classmates did not have wonderful, overflowing feelings of love towards me, but that would really be anywhere (look at some of these threads). I also did not encounter any liberal views or brainwashing even in classes that were considered "humanities".

I was actually surprised by how much better the whole experience was than I had expected. The professors and faculty were amazing, they literally bent over backwards to help their students, even me, and the quality of education was miles ahead of the quality of my high school education. I was taking business classes, mostly, so my professors were actually mostly conservative. Even the liberal arts classes were good - very interesting, respectful of opposing viewpoints, and I was surprised to find that I actually enjoyed them. I also found that everyone I met was extremely respectful of the fact that I was religious and were pretty accommodating of things like shabbos and yom tov (but only up to a point). In general, I was shocked by how kind the administration was, and how very respectful of religion and opposing viewpoints. (For example, my frum friend spoke very strongly about her views of transgender people, and no-one called her out they way they would do on this thread!) In general, the attitude was - you do you, and we do us.

But here is the BUT (you knew it was coming, didn't you?)

You are surrounded by non-Jewish culture. As someone who was somewhat sheltered before I went to college, this was a ... shock. One of my professors actually offered to let us do a presentation on our favorite performer in lieu of a test (this was Excel class, lol), and when I went to the professor to explain that I don't watch entertainment, he was bowled over (and gave me an A anyway).

The biggest BUT that I found was the language. And the lying and cheating. All I heard all day was f*** and b**** and f****** b****, I started dreaming those words. And you are surrounded by people who are constantly figuring out ways to do the least work and get the highest mark (I.e. cheat) and aren't embarrassed of it at all. And some teachers actually encouraged it. (And that's when I switched to online classes).

Maybe different colleges are different, but that was my experience.

anon for this

Sun, Dec 02 2018, 7:30 am

sub wrote:

In John Jay she had to deal with profs who were atheists, extreme liberals and self hating jews. One prof insisted on using the pronoun she for g-d and persisted in deriding our daughter when she asked if there would be chanuka lecht on campus as she was missing it at home due to class. And the interesting classmates she had. She also had to partner with a non jewish male for internship and he was interested in dating her. She is an intellectual and this was something she needed to do and she is strong bh in her yiddishkeit but it wasn’t easy.
Think very carefully if your child can handle such situations, how they will affect your child,ask for guidance, know your child and daven, daven daven.

Personally I believe that G-d has no physical form. Rashi notes in his commentary on Torah that when the Torah speaks of G-d's physical characteristics, it is using a metaphor that people can understand and relate to. Therefore I believe that She is just as correct as He when referring to G-d. Do you and/or your daughter believe that G-d is physically male?

Of course a student should never be derided for religious practices. But it would not occur to me to ask a professor about lighting chanuka candles on campus unless that professor also was the contact for student life or similar.

amother

Teal

Sun, Dec 02 2018, 8:13 am

anon for this wrote:

This exactly. She is as correct a pronoun for G-d as he. I think it's good for an 18 yr old to be shaken a bit and realize this. (שכינה anyone?)
And college isnt seminary, why would a prof know about candle lighting?

amother

Teal

Sun, Dec 02 2018, 8:36 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

The biggest BUT that I found was the language. And the lying and cheating. All I heard all day was f*** and b**** and f****** b****, I started dreaming those words. And you are surrounded by people who are constantly figuring out ways to do the least work and get the highest mark (I.e. cheat) and aren't embarrassed of it at all. And some teachers actually encouraged it. (And that's when I switched to online classes).

Maybe different colleges are different, but that was my experience.

I really wonder how universal your experience is.
I went to public school and regular university in Canada. Cheating was just not done on a massive scale. It wasn't on the radar. I was shocked when I started working at a frum establishment in Israel, and heard many colleagues asking for tips on where to buy papers for their seminar courses at frum colleges (apparently there are a few people in Bnei Brak who will write them for a good price).

Maybe I was naive, but I thought that frum people would cheat less, not more. It was actually the first time I came across massive, open, accepted cheating.

I then did a second degree at Tel Aviv University. I am sure some people cheated, but if they did it was hidden to the nth degree. Even copy-pasting a paragraph without annotating properly could get you in trouble.

As for the language, secular people will swear more, but I have found it's very dependent on geography and socio-economic bracket. I have much of my life among secular people and most of them do not swear that often.

In short, I learned that our stereotypes about frum/secular are often very wrong (at least for me they were, regarding cheating).

simcha2

Sun, Dec 02 2018, 8:44 am

It's pretty clear that there is a huge perception gap between those that attended secular college and those that have just heard about it.

Reading inflammatory Facebook posts or a news article about an isolated incident are not going to give you a true sense of the experience.

Yes, college can be challenging, but growth is dependent on challenge.

With regard to the drinking and partying, if your kid is not interested in that, then there are many, many students who are not part of that scene. If your kid is looking to experiment then they will find a way wherever they go to college.

The preparation for the outside world is something that is done throughout your kid's childhood so that their yiddishkeit and sense of self is strong before they get to college. If you throw a completely sheltered child in at the deep end of course it will be tough.

But, if we are ok with our kids getting married at the same age that they are in college (say 18-23), then we have to assume that they are mature enough to be exposed to new ideas and to learning new things.

naturalmom5

Mon, Dec 03 2018, 12:11 am

"And you are surrounded by people who are constantly figuring out ways to do the least work and get the highest mark (I.e. cheat) and aren't embarrassed of it at all. And some teachers actually encouraged it. (And that's when I switched to online classes). "

Sounds exactly like my husband's experience in Touro.. All the yeshiva guys from TV and CB were making paper planes, drinking soda and talking loud in the middle of class..
Some of them were 25, Surprised

There was massive cheating going on...

My husband always tells the joke about , minha in the middle of finals in front of non-J proctor..

The baal tefilla very devoutly and reverently, chanting ha shaila alef alef, ha shaila beis ,,gimmel, ha shaila gimmel beis etc...

When I went all the BY girls were all perfectly behaved goody goody girls, for some reason...