Would you allow your child to attend non-Jewish college?

icedcoffee

Fri, Nov 30 2018, 10:21 am

I'm an English teacher, so I try to choose my words carefully! I still think prevalent is appropriate. It's common enough that I wouldn't exactly say it's a blip on the radar. But my point is, if you go back to the rest of my post, that it doesn't really matter. I was never the kind of person to have random hookups and party all night and experiment with drugs in college, and neither was my husband. So even though we went to a secular college and it was all around us, we spent our weekends watching movies and going to Chabad events and hiking and getting ice cream. If you raise a kid with a good head on their shoulders, they'll thrive no matter where they are. If someone steps foot in college and suddenly goes crazy, I feel like there's a deeper issue, more than just the fact that you (general you) sent them to a secular college.

amother

Maroon

Fri, Nov 30 2018, 10:24 am

salamanca wrote:

Don't say "prevalent" if you really mean "some". I am not personally mad at you. I have a big problem when people are not careful with their words and mislead others as a result.

I agree salmanca. I went to Stern and my dh went to YU. I'm sure there is a group that does party, but the majority do not. Its just much harder to do so, as you said, there are security guards who make sure that girls/boys don't go into the wrong dorm. Dorms are strictly separate. I'd say the majority who go to YU do so because they want the frum environment.

Now that you maligned YU, why don't you tell us where you went to school icedcoffee? And the singles community on Bennett is a separate community from YU, with different social norms.

Mommy1:)

Fri, Nov 30 2018, 10:31 am

loaded question... can we 'allow', would it help? would it cause more harm? I've been through the college system, multiple private schools, a state school, no "frum" colleges because I couldn't afford them. I went to schools that either offered me a great scholarship/were super cheap.

Anti-semitism - didn't encounter much overt, was off the day that the anti-religious demonstrations were taking place. People for the most part tiptoed around me.

in my experience the bigger problem was the overt pressure from professors and staff to abandon religion, open challenges to my beliefs and asking me to discuss them (aka debate) with the class. I saw multiple kids become assimilated very fast - only the minority remained frum, and those who did changed in many ways as well.

Professors have no problem pushing students to abandon religion, especially judaism. They can be the tool of the yetzer hora - offering an 'in' to an out of town college/grad school with a scholarship, offering an 'in' to an opportunity to attend or present at a conference at no fee on shabbos, etc etc etc. It happens in minor ways too, with conversations about certain controversial topics (fill in the blanks) and imposing guilt on anyone who dares to disagree.

The pressures to agree with the professors are very high. Those who don't agree, where to political or religious philosophies, were often failed or given very low grades - in my experience.

I've been telling my kids that online college is the way to go, and they should only go to college if they are going to pay for it themselves. I'm not going to be their ticket to wasting years of their lives on a meaningless degree that won't get them a job.

I love Western Governor's University (WGU). It's completely online, inexpensive, and the only agenda I've encountered there with professors is to help students pass. No sitting through lectures that are about personal beliefs. There are probably other colleges that work the same way, but not all online colleges are created equal.

You can feel free to PM me with any questions.

amother

Chocolate

Fri, Nov 30 2018, 2:08 pm

I'm choosing my words carefully here.

There are people who go to YU because that's what is expected of them. Not because it's what they really wanted for themselves. And some of these people get involved in behavior that is not in line with halakha. I speak from knowing some of them.

Yes--overall, a secular college will have more people doing things you don't approve of. But fewer of them will be Orthodox (and we have to allow for the fact that some kids choose secular schools because they don't want to be Orthodox anymore or want to experiment--the school is not the cause).

Washington Heights has become a big young community. There are a lot of opportunities to get involved with people who aren't YU affiliated, some of whom are maybe not so religious. And YU/Stern are not huge colleges. You know most people in a way you don't at a big university like Binghamton. Now, everyone is going to have their chevra. A studious girl will hang with more studious girls, for example. But that also means that a student who wants to smoke marijuana and not take his Torah studies seriously can and will find that company.

What would I do? My kids are there to get an education. They will go where they can get that.

sequoia

Fri, Nov 30 2018, 2:09 pm

In my four years at Columbia I never encountered any hard drinking or partying or unsafe situations. You choose who you hang out with. You choose your friends. Also, unlike other universities, Columbia doesn’t have much Greek life. There’s actually a lot LESS partying on campus than in, say, Cornell. You’re in Manhattan. People go out a lot - not just to clubs but to concerts, plays, operas, ballets.

I actually found campus life to be much safer than the wide world. Security and medical are always there. You can always talk to your RA or a counselor. The Chabad rabbi and rebbitzin, as previously mentioned, are amazing. And it’s all within a radius of a few blocks.

As for anti-Israeli sentiment - yes, it exists. In editorials in the Spec, protests on campus, flyers... But you’re unlikely to encounter it in class. I never did, and I took mostly literature, language, and philosophy classes. All the more so, you would not encounter it in STEM subjects.

Overall I would recommend a good university with a strong Chabad and Hillel to anyone.

This is what is called “lived experience.” Not bs articles from hysterical sources.

Fox

Fri, Nov 30 2018, 2:16 pm

One of the greatest things to happen in the last 30 years is the explosion of alternatives for advanced education. The landscape in higher education has changed so much that it's hardly recognizable to those of us from earlier generations.

* The quality and scope of community colleges has increased exponentially. In fact, that's where most of the real educational innovation is going on right now. The advantage to Jewish students is that community colleges are by definition non-residential and multi-generational. The party atmosphere is diluted considerably by the number of adults taking coursework and the fact that most students have other responsibilities. The ideological slant tends to be less, too, although it is certainly present in some areas.

* Online college degrees are an excellent way for students to earn general degrees or at least earn credits in subjects that don't require labs or similar participation. One of my DDs got her degree from TTI, and I was pleasantly surprised at the rigor. The courses had all the fat stripped from them, but they covered the essentials. Did she miss the experience of classroom discussions with other students and professors. Yes. But let's be honest. For every classroom discussion in college that actually challenged me and expanded my mind, there were a dozen that simply wasted time.

* If your goal is simply to become an erudite, educated person, forget college entirely and buy a subscription to The Great Courses. Listen as you drive or commute or cook -- you'll get far more out of it than taking most college college courses.

* If you require a specific college curriculum in order to receive professional training or licensure, you can find universities with articulation agreements or transfer policies that allow you to avoid objectionable material, a major in grievance studies, and the party atmosphere.

The real question, I think, is why anyone is paying through the nose or going into debt to send their child to a four-year, residential bachelor's degree. The price has increased over 200 percent since the 1980s, and almost all of that is spent on additional administration costs. The number of college administrators has increased by 645 percent in the same time period.

Yes, many of us have fond memories of our college experiences and gained immeasurably from them. But the elements that made our experiences worthwhile are in shorter and shorter supply, even at elite universities.

Cheiny

Fri, Nov 30 2018, 3:51 pm

sequoia wrote:

Hysterical sources....!

Cheiny

Fri, Nov 30 2018, 3:52 pm

amother wrote:

I'm currently in college and absolutely would not want my 18 year old child in that atmosphere. I BH never experienced anti semitism, and I actually love it! But I'm much older and I still feel uncomfortable at times with the conversations that take place between students and professors alike.

I definitely would not want a vulnerable teenager fresh out of a sheltered system in the secular college system. Not because I think they're going to run off and become an LGBT activist, but because at their young age they shouldn't become desensitized to the world around them. The differences are so drastic I just feel it's not the right place for a frum teen.

We are very fortunate to have so many Jewish options these days. Take advantage of those!

I couldn’t agree more with all your points.

Cheiny

Fri, Nov 30 2018, 3:54 pm

leah233 wrote:

This seems to be a very emotionally charged topic so I won't comment further other than link this OU publication which says :

A new unpublished study recently brought to my attention has challenging implications for the Torah world – to wit, that a substantial number of graduates of Modern Orthodox high schools are no longer Shabbat- or kashrut– observant within two years of their graduation.

Another study from last year reported the not-quite-shocking news that 25% of those graduates who attend secular colleges assimilate during college and completely abandon Torah and mitzvot (Jewish law).

https://www.ou.org/life/parent.....nsky/

That’s absolutely frightening and I don’t know how it wouldn’t concern any frum parent.

Cheiny

Fri, Nov 30 2018, 3:56 pm

amother wrote:

I wrote a reply here that yes, would send, but I mean I would send to a city college here near me like Brooklyn college or queens college where there are a lot of Jews....

But, no, I would never send to a secular college to dorm. Some ppl wrote here wat about the partying, drinking....
Well, I would make sure my son has a full schedule so that he's not joining these parties and wont be in that atmosphere. I already told my son that its just for classes and leave....if the college is far away, I wouldn't send..

When a child becomes an adult, I don’t think you can rely on telling them what to do and what not to do. Putting them in the situation which could be risky Is a test they shouldn’t have to be put through. Peer pressure is quite strong sometimes.

Cheiny

Fri, Nov 30 2018, 3:58 pm

icedcoffee wrote:

Lol! You can choose not to believe me, I don't really care, it doesn't affect me either way. What I "saw for myself" was going to these parties (I moved there when I was 21 so I was in the right age group), observing them drink and smoke pot, seeing my friends match with them on JSwipe, hearing about the hook ups the next day, and hearing some very R-rated conversations at shabbat meals and hangouts. Look, it's not EVERYONE. I'm sure your son is fine. But college-age people are gonna be college-age people. It's normal.

I guess though the question was asked for you to provide proof, it’s clear they didn’t what you to come up with any!

Cheiny

Fri, Nov 30 2018, 4:00 pm

salamanca wrote:

There is no "Lol" when you tell lies on a public forum. Like I said, you hung out with a particular crowd and this is what you experienced. To say that this behavior is "prevalent" is disgusting. I also don't need your assurances that my son is fine, thank you very much.

It’s amazing how every single thread inevitably turns nasty...
You can choose not to believe her since your child is there and the reality is scary for you, that understandable, but there’s no reason to shoot the messenger.