For what is one "allowed" to daven ?

amother

Teal

Sun, Feb 03 2019, 7:36 am

I want to daven to Hashem that my kids will make good choices always, but will not lose any schar for their free will being removed in this area.

Is this permissible?

It seems very controlling.

Perhaps I should be davening to cope with whatever happens. I'm doing that as well.

But it's not enough. I want the first thing I mentioned.

Thoughts? Comments? Chizzuk?

Thanks!

Iymnok

Sun, Feb 03 2019, 7:51 am

You are not telling Hashem what to do, you are acknowledging that He has complete control over everything and can give you anything and orchestrate things for your benefit.
Hashem WANTS you to ask for these things. Hashem also wants you to thank him after he delivers. You can thank before as well.

amother

Lemon

Sun, Feb 03 2019, 8:16 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

You can daven for whatever you feel you want or need.
Why would you think its not allowed to daven for certain things?

It seems the op is concerned that if she davens and things work out in the way she hopes, her children will lose schar in the next world. Similar to the idea we've all heard that those who suffer in this word, preserve their schar for the next world. It stands to reason that those who have it good in this world, are using up some portion of their schar in the next world.

chicco

Sun, Feb 03 2019, 8:33 am

How about, Hashem please help me to raise my kids so that they have all of the tools to make the right choices and to be happy and healthy and on a path that brings you nachas. May they have what they need, and may they do good things with what they have got. Help me to teach them how to have yiras shamayim, ahavas yisrael, and to want to do chessed.

This gives them opportunity. What they choose to do with that opportunity is still up to them, and they have lots of schar if they do those things.

That's like saying if you properly raise your kids they don't get schar for the good. That's hardly the case. Besides with every good thing that earns us schar, we have done with Hashem's help!

You sound like a wonderful mother.

amother

Lemon

Sun, Feb 03 2019, 8:48 am

smileforamile wrote:

If that is the case, and it's not best for her children, then Hashem will answer no.

I think that teachers who say that you need to daven for what's best for you are doing a disservice. Davening is about building a relationship with Hashem. Sure, if you keep asking for something and it's not happening, then maybe you can think about whether or not you are limiting your tefilla and not asking for what you really seek (like davening for a specific shidduch to work out, when all you really want is to find your zivug). But you can daven for whatever you want.

Personally, I have davened in the past that my sports teams should win. Yeah, I know, weird for a yeshivish woman. But I'm a sports fan, and at times in my life, it was a key coping strategy. So I don't feel bad about it at all- I was asking Hashem for what I truly wanted, even if it wasn't all that important.

I don't see how you can say that davening is all about building a relationship when davening is in fact full of requests. Just yesterday we benched rosh chodesh and we asked hashem for life, parnassah, happiness, and other things as well. We are always taught to ask hashem for things. He's our father after all. Health, children, and shidduchim to name a few. I can't accept that our requests are merely building a relationship and not a means to get what we want. When a 40 year old woman struggling with infertility for 20 years is crying and begging hashem for a child, she's not building a relationship.....she's begging for a child. I feel like the "davening for a relationship" is just a convenient fall back explanation in case the person davening doesn't get what they asked for.

Mommyg8

Sun, Feb 03 2019, 8:55 am

amother wrote:

Chazal say that Hashem specifically gave the test of infertility to the imahos so that they should daven, because Hashem desires their tefillos שהקב"ה מתאוה לתפלתן של צדיקים י .

So yes, Hashem wants her to build a relationship. Everyone knows that if you want to request something of someone, the stronger the relationship the higher the chances...

PinkFridge

Sun, Feb 03 2019, 8:57 am

smileforamile wrote:

I liked your post but I'm not sure if I fully agree. They can be reconciled.
We can daven for anything, while knowing that however Hashem answers will be what is best for us because He knows best. It's said not to be too detailed, to dictate to Hashem, but I think that if we do find ourselves getting that detailed as long as we do it with the kavana that "This is what I, as a mere mortal see as the best, but that I trust You to do what's really best," we're ok.

The important thing is the connection to the Only One Who can really make things happen.

amother

Slategray

Sun, Feb 03 2019, 8:59 am

Look at what we ask for in rosh chodesh benching - pretty much everything you could dream of - and osher vikavod to boot! Why aren’t we afraid that this will take away from the schar? I think it’s always good to ask H’ to guide us in the right direction and to spare from mistakes. I’ve seen it in tefilos. Read Rav Pincus’ sefer on tefillah. He says it’s praiseworthy to ask for everyday mundane things (e.g. my example would be a parking spot). He also says you should keep asking and asking , like a child who’s nudging his father for something.

dankbar

Sun, Feb 03 2019, 12:11 pm

There is such a thing as not "einreisen" for a specific thing.

I know some stories where it didn't end well.

Like a family went to rebbe that this specific shidduch must happen, when other side didn't want. Instead of davening for right shidduch. They ended up getting married, but wife got sick after a couple of years & died.

Another couple that went to rebbe & said he wants a child , after many years of infertility, rebbe told him I can pray for you, but it will come on your expense. Years from your life will have to be deducted to grant years of life for your child. He agreed. He lived till after child's wedding. Another couple got same answer from rebbe right after him in line. He refused & stayed childless.

A family was hit with a sales tax audit for their business. When audit was over, he had to pay $60,000 in taxes & penalties to State. He went to rebbe, that he doesn't have money & it should go down to zero. He re-appealed & it did go down to zero. Not too much later he lost 2 of his dgtrs to a car accident. If the money was supposed to be a kapparah, he ended up having a bigger loss than money after that.

amother

Lemon

Sun, Feb 03 2019, 12:26 pm

dankbar wrote:

I don't understand how these stories are true. If they were, it would be dangerous to daven on our own without first consulting a rebbe who can advise us if as to what we are sacrificing if hashem gives us our request. A childless couple wants a baby? Maybe hashem will only grant it at the expense that the couple will both lose 20 years off their lives. Most people just daven without first consulting a malach who can literally know hashems cheshbon.

leah233

Sun, Feb 03 2019, 12:31 pm

I heard the following story on a tape from Rav Yisroel Reisman:

He was in Camp Agudah when Rav Moshe Feinstein came for a visit . Some older kids got a younger naive kid to ask Rav Moshe if he can daven in Shemonah Esrey for a new baseball glove. Rav Moshe answered that if it is important to you, you can daven for it . The older boys then got him to ask Rav Moshe "Can you daven that the Mets win the world series in Shemonah Esrey?" Rav Moshe answered indirectly by saying "Anything that is important can be davened for in Shemonah Esrey"

As far as the OPs actual question, we daven not to have nisyonis all the time. Even if we will get less schar because of it.

groisamomma

Sun, Feb 03 2019, 12:33 pm

What's with the gory stories this week, dankbar?

OP, my take on this is a little unconventional. If I'm making time to daven, then I throw caution to the wind and ask for whatever I want. Hashem can decide what to take from it. Trust me, He knows better than I do what I need right now but it makes me feel a tiny bit in control to at least have a say. I've been told that Hashem knows what you need, He doesn't need your help. But I feel like a gentle reminder never hurts...(I'm kidding, obviously Very Happy

). Especially with anything related to my kids I reserve the right to ask. What He does with my bakashos is up to Him.