Would you want to be corrected?

mumoo

Thu, Dec 13 2007, 7:55 pm

with support from chocolate moose who asked
I sit next to a women who, every single week, mispronounces some words - what to do ?

and my situation:
when I am attending at the mikva, some women mispronouce words of the brocha or yehi ratzon. It is always a challenge to me to know when or whom to correct.

Some women I feel sure would want to know that the word is tvila and not tfila, others maybe would be offended, so I err on the side of not telling. A very common one is "v'Sam navodcha" and "vsorats'cha"

Not all of them are bt's or new to Hebrew either, you can tell by how they say the rest of it

so here are some questions:
are their tefilos somehow less valid because they unknowingly mispronouce words
Are we chyiv to tell them if there are errors if we notice them
would you want to be told
have you ever told someone this and it turned out bad

gryp

Thu, Dec 13 2007, 8:07 pm

I would definitely want to be corrected.

No, the tefilos are not invalid because of their mistakes.

Too bad they can't have a paper to read off of. It would be much easier to point out a mistake that way.

greenfire

Thu, Dec 13 2007, 8:07 pm

I personally would want to be corrected

however, there's a famous story - I wish I remember - where a famous rebetzin was saying tehillim by heart whilst she was doint stuff around the house and somebody - a kid I believe - corrected her ... the reply was that Hashem understands my prayers ...

Purplehair

Thu, Dec 13 2007, 8:09 pm

I am one of those women ("v'Sam instead of v'sham")who needed to be corrected. I am really glad that my Mikvah lady did so, because I would forever wonder if the tevila was truly kosher.

Purplehair

Thu, Dec 13 2007, 8:13 pm

GR wrote:

I recall one of the mikvaot used having the bracha and yehi ratzon posted on the wall. Unfortunately, I am nearsighted, and without my glasses or lenses, I couldn't really make out the words. embarrassed

Clarissa

Thu, Dec 13 2007, 8:20 pm

I would want to be corrected. I've often relied on kind and knowledgeable mikvah attendants for their expertise. It's one of the reasons they're there to help me, I assume.

mumoo

Thu, Dec 13 2007, 8:23 pm

I always think it would embarrass the woman and I am so careful to make the tevila experience a positive one. People I know, maybe, but I don't know how to approach one that I don't know

chocolate moose

Thu, Dec 13 2007, 8:23 pm

I do not know if the tefilah "counts" if it's not said correctly; I'm sure everyone has heard the stories about the Rebbes who ask their mekusharim to be careful about the davening, and corrcted them when they heard them saying words which meant something else...

Sort of like with mezuzos.

Clarissa

Thu, Dec 13 2007, 8:25 pm

mumoo wrote:

I always think it would embarrass the woman and I am so careful to make the tevila experience a positive one. People I know, maybe, but I don't know how to approach one that I don't know

You're nice to be concerned, but I feel this kind of connection with the mikvah attendants, even when they're new. Maybe it's because I'm naked, maybe it's because I know that they know more about halacha than I do and will be there for me. They're usually so nice that I'm immediately put at ease. So if one gently wanted to help me do things correctly, I'd thank her for it, and mean it.

grin

Fri, Dec 14 2007, 2:31 am

I read a beautiful story recently, where the perosn did the correcting mitoch total ahavas yisroel, saying:
I see how much you try to daven with kavana, etc (he really laid the praises on thick) - but maybe you never realized that these words are pornounced:..............
This way, the person is made first to feel good about himself that he's doing so well, and he's being helped to do even better.
Personally, I appreciate being corrected - but only with an accurate source.

mama-star

Fri, Dec 14 2007, 2:32 am

one time an experienced and trusted mikveh lady told me; "it doesn't matter even if you said the brocha shehakol!!!"

anyway, the quandary here is whether or not the woman would take it in a good way. you can never tell how she would respond, she is in a very vulnerable situation with you. maybe telling her on mikveh night wouldn't be a good idea either, it could make them feel awkward or embarrassed - she doesn't need those feelings on tevila night!

if you DO decide to tell, you can approach the situation very gently and humbly. like the story about the rav who didn't want to embarrass the husband when the wife said, "can you please tell him it's forbidden to touch the shabbos candles?" and the rav said, "oh, hmmm, let me look that up" and went rummaging through his seforim so as not to make things so painfully obvious to the poor husband.

and of course, you can always ask a rav and follow his psak on the matter!

hatzlocho!

mamacita

Fri, Dec 14 2007, 3:19 am

GR wrote:

obviosly CYLO, but I remember learning and dh confirms that if your mistake changes the meaning of the bracha it is invalid. The tevila is fine but the tefila is a prob. Smile

I have no idea how but for years I was leaving a word out of asher yatzar. The rav said it was fine as the word I left out didn't change the meaning, but it sure took some effort to rememorize!

BennysMommy

Fri, Dec 14 2007, 3:28 am

I would definitely want to be corrected. Actually I was once at the mikvah and the mikvah lady told me something that I was doing wrong. I was so happy she told me and I thanked her. Otherwise I would never have known and continued doing it for who knows how long.

mumoo

Fri, Dec 14 2007, 10:34 am

mama-star wrote:

one time an experienced and trusted mikveh lady told me; "it doesn't matter even if you said the brocha shehakol!!!"

that's true regarding the tvila-or even no brocha as long as its a kosher mikva it's very hard to make a tvila posul

mama-star wrote:

anyway, the quandary here is whether or not the woman would take it in a good way. you can never tell how she would respond, she is in a very vulnerable situation with you. maybe telling her on mikveh night wouldn't be a good idea either, it could make them feel awkward or embarrassed - she doesn't need those feelings on tevila night!

that's truly my dilemma. once I told a woman who only showered at home that it was 'preferable' to shower at the mikva. (I called her Rov) She was very grateful but then went on to berate herself because she had children with issues and now blamed herself for improper toiveling

yentaof8

Fri, Dec 14 2007, 10:43 am

I once heard a story that happened long ago in Russia, where there were a few women who had difficulty conceiving. They were told to listen to the way a certain simple person davened and to say amen. During his shmone esrei, he would mispronounce the bracha Mivaraich Hashanim and say instead Mivaraich Hanashim - sure enough after saying amen to that, a short time later, the women conceived - so I guess Kavana accounts for a lot.

realeez

Fri, Dec 14 2007, 10:46 am

What about putting a list next to the steps to the actual mikvah - like proper positioning of hands, remember head covering, watch out in how you say the following words... Other mikvahs have signs with checklists, etc, so why not have this one too?

Mimisinger

Fri, Dec 14 2007, 11:00 am

I always read the yehi ratzon on the wall (if there is one) - I think it's important to have one. And I am also blind without glasses or contacts, so I bring them to the mikva with me - otherwise I couldn't find the mikva. I then take them off and put them on the side and put them back on to read the yehi ratzon

louche

Fri, Dec 14 2007, 11:13 am

greenfire wrote:

I personally would want to be corrected

You're a better person than I am. I wouldn't, unless I was really making a fool of myself, like asking Hashem to forgive my shins instead of my sins. LOL

OOOOeeeeee, I just cracked myself up. I was not referring to the hebrew letters.