What should I do? | Imamother

amother

Babyblue

Mon, Apr 01 2019, 10:18 pm

amother wrote:

It's frustrating, but that doesn't come first if there's a person needing a place to stay for Pesach. The haggadah doesn't lead with relaxation and comfort, it leads with invite everyone in need to celebrate with you.

I love having guests. I do wonder what a Rav would say on this specific matziv. Is it a mitzvah or not? I’d feel much more comfortable knowing I’m doing the right thing and not just what sil feels is right.

trixx

Mon, Apr 01 2019, 10:20 pm

amother wrote:

Op here. Hi, can we be friends? I’d love to do ask Rav but husband is afraid to upset his older married brother/ he feels that if he’s ok with it (has no option) then why should he get involved? Is it worth it to make everyone mad at me?

Bc you're very uncomfortable with it, as his younger single brother will be, and your dh is being thick headed bc he doesn't want to deal with confrontation

Asking a rav is a great idea.
There could also be yichud issues

amother

Dodgerblue

Mon, Apr 01 2019, 10:20 pm

amother wrote:

That’s not really a conversation I can have. She knows how she should act. Like you said, this is not only about table conversations.

If she knows how she's supposed to act, then what's the issue. I repeat - there's something here you're not saying.

But if you feel you can't have the conversation with the girl, why don't you have a quiet conversation with your SIL. Relate your concerns and ask her to do her best to avoid what situations you're picturing in your mind.

amother

Dodgerblue

Mon, Apr 01 2019, 10:25 pm

amother wrote:

OP, why would it be lashon hora to ask the rest of the sisters n law if they agree in having the girl join for yom tov?? They anyways must know before, she can't just arrive without everyone knowing about it.

Cause it sounds like the OP has something specific in her mind, and she'd have to relate that to her SILs to get them to come around to her side.

I'm also curious how one would go about dis-inviting a young girl, who may not have or dislike her other options, without ramifications.

trixx

Mon, Apr 01 2019, 10:25 pm

amother wrote:

What happened in the past that is making you uncomfortable with this? Agree there must be more to the story because you keep aluding to stuff but nothing specific.

amother wrote:

I'm not op and I'm getting frustrated by these kinds of responses.
Why can't you all understand that this does not fly by her? No hidden agenda, fears of cheating husband, lack of desire to feed the hungry on pesach/host guests (love how everyone is suddenly pulling that card)

It's just not okay in her circles and she doesn't have to be okay with it.

amother

Linen

Mon, Apr 01 2019, 10:29 pm

If your husband won’t ask then you should ask on your own.
What the Rav tells you is the Psak that your husband and ILs must follow.

As another poster mentioned, I am also Chabad and in our community this would not be hashkafically acceptable.

In this case, the OP is the one who made the majority of the arrangements, so it should have been asked of her and not put on her.

amother

Dodgerblue

Mon, Apr 01 2019, 10:29 pm

trixx wrote:

Because if it would be just not ok in her circles, lashon hora wouldn't have even come to mind. If it were only not ok in her circles, then presumably at least another family member would have issues with it too or would have understood that she would be taking issue with it.

She also mentioned that the girls knows how to act, and whats expected of her.

So why the big concern that there's a need to upend Pesach for some?

amother

Aquamarine

Mon, Apr 01 2019, 10:31 pm

Well, she may be faced with some tough choices. Her SIL will take it personally, her husband doesn't want to rock the boat. Going to other SILs seems likely to backfire. Especially if it solely discomfort on her part.
I would think, if this girl had behaved inappropriately in the past, everyone else would "get it" and the girl probably would not have been invited in the first place. But it doesn't sound like that's the case.

causemommysaid

Mon, Apr 01 2019, 10:31 pm

amother wrote:

What happened in the past that is making you uncomfortable with this? Agree there must be more to the story because you keep aluding to stuff but nothing specific.

I have to agree. There must be something off here like she doesnt dress tzanuah or she doesnt behave as expected or something and OP isnt saying so.

Most of these huge family yom tov homes are bursting with kids all the time and are super hectic with women hanging with women and men with men in the yeshiva crowds. One more person would hardly be noticed.

I have super yeshivish relatives and whenever we do shabbos together it is such a baalagan that you barely know who is in the house anyway.

What did this girl do in the past to make you so uncomfortable?

amother

Pumpkin

Mon, Apr 01 2019, 10:36 pm

trixx wrote:

Agree with trixx, and I’m sure most yeshivish rabbonim would too.
This isn’t just for the Seder or even just meals. It’s a week plus of sleeping, eating & socializing in close proximity. It is not appropriate. If it is ok in your circles, good for u. This isn’t appropriate in chassidish, very yeshivish or chabad circles (and in chabad we are very open to guests of both genders and all types!) There are boundaries not meant to be crossed. I’m just imagining early morning both single BIL & SIL meet in kitchen both to get a coffee, SIL is in her robe, everyone else is asleep. Or late at night everyone is conversing and chilling, guard down. Or worse late at night they both end up being the only ones up. Or both can’t sleep & wind up shmoozing on the couch. It’s the same house, bound to happen at some point, it’s just not right! I see it much less of an issue with the married men, but can see where it can get uncomfortable too, & difficult to maintain boundaries.

OP, just pick up the phone and call a rov you respect. Explain the full situation, sleeping arrangements & family dynamics. Then follow what the rov says. That’s what we frum yidden do. If the rov says it’s ok with certain boundaries u can follow guilt free. If not, you tell your husband you felt very uncomfortable so called the rov and this is what he said. If your husband had respect for Halacha & rabbonim I don’t see why he shouldn’t understand. He just may not have the guts to deal with it himself.

Just ask. Then u can come back on here and brainstorm the next steps depending on the answer.

Miri7

Mon, Apr 01 2019, 10:49 pm

I think that you should leave it up to the people who would be most uncomfortable with this to speak up - I wouldn't get involved and possibly poison family relationships. If your DH isn't willing to rock the boat, nor your single BIL, I'd let it be. If she is aware of your religious norms and expectations and respects them, and the hanging out will generally be gals together and guys together, then it seems as though you'll just have one more woman there to whom you are not blood related. In our family, we have a more expansive definition of family - my sister's husband's sister always lets me know when she will be in town and we make plans to get together. I consider her a family member.

I do agree that it is annoying when people invite a guest to a planned group event.

amother

Amethyst

Mon, Apr 01 2019, 10:49 pm

I'm so surprised that some people are accusing OP of hiding something or not being welcoming.
I think this situation is very socially off.....a family decides to rent a house together for Pesach. Everyone is related to this part of the family (including a single brother). They will all be sleeping together in one house.
Without consulting anyone, one of the sils decides to bring someone along that is not a part of the family. This will change the dynamics for everyone, physically and hashkafically.

(PS we have many guests on Pesach)

WhatFor

Mon, Apr 01 2019, 10:56 pm

I'm quite familiar with yeshivish circles and OP is right that in very yeshivish circles, you'd rarely have a single man and woman sleeping in the same house as presented. However, I can't imagine the same people who hold like that setting up an arrangement where you'd rent a place to have a bunch of young couples sleeping together in the same house, even if one party from each couple is related. You still have a bunch of married men and women sleeping in a house with people they're not related to, which is technically more problematic (and can lead to far graver issues) than two single people in a house together. You have married men and women waking up and sharing bathrooms, etc. Some yeshivish people might, but that would be more left-wing yeshivish.

I have a feeling that the answer to the ask a Rav thing, if they are THAT yeshivish, is that a Rav would not be happy with that arrangement, period.

This whole situation makes me think that not everyone in this family is THAT yeshivish, and that OP is pulling the frumkeit card out when one aspect of this bothers her for personal reasons.

Your SIL's sister is as family to your brother as SIL is to you. She already made the invite, presumably because not everyone in this group is yeshivish. I don't think it would be in your best interest long-term to disinvite her. If this is such an issue for you, try to find a nearby Airbnb and say your family wants more privacy. You want to be chumradik on single women (but not married women), great, but imo don't make other people suffer for your frumkeit.