Tznius Top for Cleaning Help

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Forum -> Household Management -> Cleaning & Laundry

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newcomer

Sun, Aug 16 2020, 12:57 pm

Saying someone does any kind of behavior "like an animal" is derogatory and dehumanizing. Sorry, no good way to spin that kind of comment.
I would cut a kid who said it some slack, though, I would assume he heard it from adults or older kids and is just repeating something he doesn't understand the full import of.

amother

Lilac

Sun, Aug 16 2020, 12:58 pm

Giselle,
That is exactly what I was thinking
and I was wondering how animals dress.
I was too lazy to find and post images.
Thank you for doing to work.

mommy3b2c

Sun, Aug 16 2020, 1:03 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

If they wear regular t-shirts I'm fine with that.
The top that LOTS of ladies are wearing (and FYI they bring it themselves!) is a v neck short sleeve, it's not any more than I expect in my home.

But recently when it got warm she was wearing a short top with laces down the whole center, my boys came home and her cleavage is hanging in their face. My young boys told me, why is dressed like an animal. And if the world dresses like that or not, it is animalistic. Regal people cover themselves. It is very understandable that in Rome do as the Romans, and it is very clear that the women in our community don't dress that way. When you walk into our homes, one can respect that.

Bash away.

I think you should teach your sons not to call people animals. That is very disrespectful.

newcomer

Sun, Aug 16 2020, 1:04 pm

Success10 wrote:

I get the feeling the boy did not use the term "animal". It's just the mother's retelling of the story on imamother in her own words.

That's not much better. Because like I said, I would cut a kid some slack for a dehumanizing comment like that because he probably doesn't know better. Not so much an adult.

PeanutMama

Sun, Aug 16 2020, 1:24 pm

Whoa that is so wrong... what are you teaching your kids?! That non Jews dress like animals?!
That’s beyond disgusting I’m sorry.
I also hate the word [gentile woman]...like W H Y ?!

chanchy123

Sun, Aug 16 2020, 1:34 pm

I’m not familiar with the dynamics of cleaning lady and boss in America. I do think it’s reasonable to say, respectfully to a woman you’re hiring: Look, as you must have noticed, we’re very religious and dress very modestly, we’d appreciate if you’d respect our religious sensitivity by wearing a top with some sleeve and no cleavage. Making it clear that it’s our mishegas, nothing wrong with her or how she dresses. Do not mention sons or any other male families members. It’s not about them it’s one of the crazy religious fanatical things we do as Orthodox Jews like having separate sinks for meat and dairy.

Any reference to a woman you employ as “animalistic” is disgusting. If anyone in your home thinks about this woman that way there probably isn’t a tactful way to introduce this. The way she dresses is acceptable in her world. It’s not like she’s being proactive on purpose.

Last edited by chanchy123 on Sun, Aug 16 2020, 1:40 pm; edited 1 time in total

giselle

Sun, Aug 16 2020, 1:37 pm

Hashem_n_Farfel wrote:

Whoa that is so wrong... what are you teaching your kids?! That non Jews dress like animals?!
That’s beyond disgusting I’m sorry.
I also hate the word [gentile woman]...like W H Y ?!

Your word was edited, but I’m assuming I know which word you’re referring to. I just want to explain, that while it may have taken on a derogatory meaning over the years, originally it literally referred to a non Jewish woman. Many people who still use that word only do so because they aren’t aware that it is considered derogatory.

Mama Bear

Sun, Aug 16 2020, 1:47 pm

Hashem_n_Farfel wrote:

Whoa that is so wrong... what are you teaching your kids?! That non Jews dress like animals?!
That’s beyond disgusting I’m sorry.
I also hate the word [gentile woman]...like W H Y ?!

Youre completely misunderstanding. No one teaches their kid that non jews dress like animals!

This cleaning lady in question was wearing a lace-up center top, and her cleavage/ midriff was showing through the laces. that's a lot worse than simply not being dressed non-tznius. Tht's very revealing and downright risque. So this woman's young son asked, why is she dressing like an animal, I.e. her body is showing. In his sheltered innocence, he knew that human beings cover up their bodies. Animals don't.

That's all. I don't know why everyone is adding things to this story and jumping to conclusions without rereading the post!

(I wouldn't be happy if my cleaning help was dressed like that, honestly. I had a real issue years ago when my autistic son's aide was a young girl who regularly wore low-cut tops, and I didn't want to offend her, but it was uncomfortable when she sat in our dining room during the shabbos meal like this. I was in a real bind.)

Last edited by Mama Bear on Sun, Aug 16 2020, 1:51 pm; edited 2 times in total

Mama Bear

Sun, Aug 16 2020, 1:48 pm

ALSO THIS THREAD IS OVER A YEAR OLD. why are people quibbling now about what some anonymous boy said in april 2019. We have other things to worry about.

newcomer

Sun, Aug 16 2020, 1:48 pm

The post was pretty clear. "Like an animal" is never ok. Unless you are referring to nazis or murderers etc.

Mama Bear

Sun, Aug 16 2020, 1:52 pm

newcomer wrote:

The post was pretty clear. "Like an animal" is never ok. Unless you are referring to nazis or murderers etc.

Feel free to PM the person who wrote this in 2019. I don't know why this is being turned into such a big deal. this thread shouldve never been bumped up.

FranticFrummie

Sun, Aug 16 2020, 1:52 pm

People, this is not rocket science!

https://www.amazon.com/Red-Kap.....1ZQ==

https://www.amazon.com/Hair-St.....to_dp

https://www.amazon.com/Jiyaru-.....=8-55

https://www.amazon.com/WonderW.....VVC13

You know your cleaner best, so you can pick one that suits her personality. Even better, show her a selection and let her pick one out for herself. If you want to be really nice, you can take the top to someone who does embroidery, and put her name on it.

dancingqueen

Sun, Aug 16 2020, 1:53 pm

Mama Bear wrote:

No one called the cleaning lady an animal. Her son asked why she is DRESSING LIKE AN ANIMAL, I.e. with her body showing. Her son didnt CALL the WOMAN an animal. He called out her clothing choices.

I wonder if this is a language barrier. I’ve heard people described as animals/acting like animals pretty frequently on this site (unfortunately usually people of other races). In English, that is considered VERY offensive and hurtful, but maybe in Yiddish it’s less offensive?

giselle

Sun, Aug 16 2020, 1:58 pm

Mama Bear wrote:

ALSO THIS THREAD IS OVER A YEAR OLD. why are people quibbling now about what some anonymous boy said in april 2019. We have other things to worry about.

Oops that is funny, did not even notice that!

Success10

Sun, Aug 16 2020, 2:03 pm

chanchy123 wrote:

This is a good post. We have so many other weird nuances that have to be explained to hired help, especially in the kitchen. How do you explain to them that they're not allowed to cook anything with your pots, or you need to turn on the flame? Won't they get offended? You just crack it up to religious insanity, and you say thank you for respecting our idiosyncrasies.

So, you present her with some sort of button-down and you don't even mention it has anything to do with her, and just make a it a religious thing. Now she might have friends she talks to, and she might realize this is not the norm in every house. But it's a good point, that whenever you bring non-Jewish help into your home, there are going to be weird rules you need to explain. I don't think they'll think twice about it, if you present it in the right way.

There are women who really value tznius in their homes, and I think that is highly commendable.

dancingqueen

Sun, Aug 16 2020, 2:20 pm

chanchy123 wrote:

To your first paragraph: the dynamics may be different in Israel, but in America people do t take as kindly to being told to change their clothes. Cleaning especially is heavy labor, and putting on extra layers could be uncomfortable.

chanchy123

Sun, Aug 16 2020, 2:29 pm

dancingqueen wrote:

I agree that blouse thing is terrible. I was thinking about a normal t shirt and just present as a take it or leave it situation as part of the idiosyncrasies of an orthodox home. No judgment. Believe me this would be head line news in Israel.

tante_feige

Sun, Aug 16 2020, 3:50 pm

Imagine a Yeshivish kid seeing a woman in seamed stockings, and saying that she's dressed like a harlot. It should help things make sense.

Last edited by tante_feige on Sun, Aug 16 2020, 3:59 pm; edited 1 time in total

tante_feige

Sun, Aug 16 2020, 3:51 pm

tante_feige wrote:

Imagine a Yeshivish kid seeing a woman in seemed stockings, and saying that she's dressed like a harlot. It should help things make sense.

Fun fact: Pr0stitute gets changed to harlot. The more you know!

ora_43

Sun, Aug 16 2020, 3:53 pm

I don't get the need. Are people just standing there watching her clean? Because that would be weird no matter what she's wearing.

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