S/o cancelled concert..

amother

Sapphire

Tue, Apr 16 2019, 11:37 am

DVOM wrote:

We put this question to our Rabbi about a year ago. The catalyst for the question was a bit different: I'm raising 4 boys in Lakewood, oldest is almost 11. In my kids' school, I'd say about half the kids have access to some sort of entertainment system (ds, Xbox, Wii, ps4, or an ipad or computer they are allowed to use) and our oldest started petitioning to get one as well. We both really dislike screen-based entertainment, not so much for religous reasons, more because we don't think it's great for thier development.

What we've been trying to do is give our kids exposure to many different outlets, and helping them develop hobbies they really enjoy. The aim is to give them something to fill the void that so many people are describing: nothing to do with time off, a)because they never have any and are so unused to it and b)because there is no 'kosher' entertainment. Well, my little boys have time off now, at this age, and we are using that time to help them find things they are interested in and passionate about that are productive, fun, and positive.

We are investing quite a bit of money and time on these hobbies, and some of them are really sticking. My oldest (the one who wanted the gaming system) got really interested in the technical/science side of electronics and engineering. We snap up any old motor-based toy that we can find from flea markets and he has been taking them apart and soldering them together and making the coolest things. He and my husband worked all year on making him a Tetris electronic game, from scratch. I have no idea about technicalities, but they spent long hours with wires and motherboards and a sodoring iron and they did it. Next he would like to build a motor to power his bike; they are in the planning stages on that one. We also subscribed to Kiwicrates for him; they send a STEM project once a month. It's expensive, and he has been paying for (most of) it himself, with money he's saves up. He loves the kits, actually, all my boys are enjoying the things he makes. Another one of my boys has always been particularly artistic; he's little still, but we are providing him with high-quality art supplies and will (hopefully!) find him lessons soon. All of my kids actually love art, and we do a lot of painting and drawing and creating. Some of my boys enjoy athletics; we are encouraging that too. We also found and dragged home a huge electronic organ (very long story, we found it in a dumpster and took a chance that it would work. There are a few stuck keys, but most of it works great!) hoping someone would develop an interest in playing. So far no one is showing more than cursory interest, so we'll be getting rid of it soon.

The 'Chaos' thread touched a nerve for me too. It's a strange town we're raising our kids in. The high school schedules sound insane to me. I'm not sure what we'll do at that point. For now though, we're focusing on developing and nurturing thier curiosity and creativity.

Kol Hakavod to you! You're an amazing mom.

I also have a gang of boys, but they're older than yours. They're all bochurim at this point. I did similarly to you, though to a lesser extent. I introduced my kids to hobbies, and various other interests, but unfortunately that didn't last. Once they entered Mesivta, they literally have no available time to spare. They leave the house before 7, and don't get a chance to breathe before they arrive home at about 9:30-10. That's from Sunday thru Friday, plus a shiur on Motzai Shabbos in the winter. It's really being overdone, and the kids are just overwhelmed. By the time Bein Hazmanim comes around, they want to breathe, chill and have a bit of fun. They don't have any energy left to pick up an old hobby and revitalize it.

It's sad, very sad. This system works for so few, but we push it down everyone's throat. Each child is different, and it's an immense struggle to be mechanech my kids al pi darko when there are such limited options for them. Watching my kids go thru the system, I think it does more harm than good. For the most part, it doesn't leave them with an enticing taste of Torah. It's more like I have to push this through to be able to get married and move on to be my own person. For example, one of my sons is extremely bright, but finds it very tough learning the same thing throughout the entire day. He was in desperate need of some change-up during the days to keep his energy going. So he asked his RY, if he can learn something else during the second seder - he was smacked down so quickly. So what was the end result, I had a boy who was beginning to hate learning, it was beyond frustrating for him.

I just don't understand the mentality of the such a system. Can all of us women picture learning one subject throughout our entire day in school? And then come back after dinner, to learn that one more time? And even more so, if it's a subject that's not up your alley? Imagine if you have a creative brain, and not a logical one and you're forced to learn math the entire day, (Computation in the morning, statistical in the afternoon, and then come back at night to review it all). How would you fare doing that 7 days a week, for 10 months of the year? And now imagine that you get labelled according to how successful you are doing that math, and your participation in the math classes? All your other abilities are deemed non-essential and everything rests solely on your ability to learn math?

This is what we put our boys through. And contrary to what naysayers say, we can offer our boys much more without sidelining the chashuvos and importance of Torah. And we can do right by our boys if only all of us parents would begin to demand it publicly.

aricelli

Tue, Apr 16 2019, 12:06 pm

amother [ Sapphire ] wrote:

So true!
1- my son is also a bigger bochur. I’m disillusioned because everything we’ve/ he’s done to further his hobbies and talents were so hard to maintain
2- youre right- I could never keep such a schedule. I have a teenage daughter and teenage son- its (not so) funny to compare their schedules. I wish my son would have just a little fraction of what my daughter gets in school
3- youre so right: if we’d all be more vocal perhaps things would change

amother

Cerise

Tue, Apr 16 2019, 12:31 pm

aricelli wrote:

My 20 year old daughter - who was very highly thought of in school and is a great girl - says she doesn't think she would've made a "top boy".

DREAMING

Tue, Apr 16 2019, 4:50 pm

If I would’ve been a boy I might’ve been OTD with the schedule they keep.
And I’m saying that with my screen name!!!

I have boys and feel so for the kids

amother

Slategray

Tue, Apr 16 2019, 4:55 pm

I saw advertised that there's being an event with Beri Weber tonigh in Lakewood. Tickets from the cancelled event may be used or bought in for a refund.

DVOM

Wed, Apr 17 2019, 4:21 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

DVOM, your boys are lucky to have you!

It's interesting that I moved from New York to Lakewood over twenty years ago for just this reason. My husband and I felt that New York was too much "in the box" and we wanted our boys to have more freedom (Lakewood was perceived as a bit more "OOT" at the time). I remember when I first drove into Lakewood and I saw a father and son fishing together at the lake, I turned to my husband and said - this is where I want to raise my boys. The yeshiva was not as pressured as the yeshiva they were in in New York, and the whole lifestyle seemed calmer and simpler.

But of course, no place is perfect and like many of you, I think that there is a lot or room for improvement. My boys were not necessarily drawn to the idea of a concert, so this is not my issue, but I do see the necessity of more freedom, more outlets. I remember when Avos U'bonim first started, (I know, all of you absolutely think it's the greatest thing since sliced bread), but my husband and I were furious. They have one evening a week off (they have school every day of the week) and you have to chase them on motzei Shabbos too?

I do want to point out though, that there are opportunities for hobbies and the like (parents have to be aggressive about it though). A friend of mine sends her son to - I think it's judo? lessons, others feel that joining a gym is a bit of an outlet.... my boys are mostly into sedentary stuff like drawing (I still have some really nice comic books that my older boys put together), writing, playing music, reading (and electronic games) but I do see the problem for boys who are by nature more active.

Fascinating, Mommyg8. I thought I was the only one who thinks like this! My husband really dislikes avosubonim... We do not have the type of kids who sit quietly, waiting thier turn for thier dad to learn with them. We have the type of kids who review thier chumash or gemara while jumping on the trampoline or rollerblading circles around you. We went to Avos Ubonim just enough times to be included in the big party/raffel at the end.

DVOM

Wed, Apr 17 2019, 4:23 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

Maybe they exist, but not in Lakewood.

I do think, though, that 9 to 5 is a bit too short. Most schools start at 7:30 to 7:45 for davening - which makes sense. It doesn't seem to make sense to start davening at 9:00. As for finishing at 5:00 - I don't know how old your sons are, but I remember that when my sons were in seventh and eight grade, they came home at around 5:00 and they had so much free time that I was - almost - literally tearing my hair out. For some reason the Rebbeim/teachers have given up on homework at this point (honestly, I think it's a non-issue because only one of my boys actually did homework without serious bribery) and they had WAAY to much free time. At least that's what I thought.

Yes, good point. Lets say 7:45- 6?

DVOM

Wed, Apr 17 2019, 4:32 am

naturalmom5 wrote:

Lol...
You are basically describing TABC

I'm assuming you're describing a MO school?

I don't think we'd fit in well in a MO school. We certainly wouldn't do well in a very yeshivish HS either. I don't know that in Lakewood there is anything in between.... ***sigh!*** Maybe in the next three years someone will open up a moderate, more balanced yeshiva for us.

DVOM

Wed, Apr 17 2019, 4:38 am

TranquilityAndPeace wrote:

Sure, if it's l'toeles.

I'm thinking more about this.

My son who learns a lot just turned 20. He's at the top of his class in a small wonderful Yeshiva. If he keeps this up, he can become a posek, a Rav, a Rosh Yeshiva.

However, if he'd been in a system where Yeshiva ended at 5pm, it's doubtful he would have reached this high level of learning.

Which makes me just reiterate my point. We're raising all these kids to have the schedule and mindset and hobbies of future gedolim, even though a very small percentage actually will.

Is this the correct approach for the other 99% of Yeshiva boys, who probably crave outlets and downtime?

Never mind that the MOST possible sleep my 20 year old in Bais medrash can get is 6 hours and 25 minutes per night, keeping to the group's schedule. Sometimes an hour nap on Shabbos. But I guess this is another story for another thread.

PS the marital arts class my other son takes in Lakewood is @alufmma on Instagram. I've been impressed with the owner and my son's experience there.

And yet, in past generations where all the boys were educated in a less intense "future gadol" manner, gedolim were produced. If your son and his whole community were given a 9-5 sort of education, and your son showed great apptitude and stamina for learning, at some point he would have been singled out and coached in that direction.

DVOM

Wed, Apr 17 2019, 4:51 am

sky wrote:

This sounds amazing.
In our neighborhood screen time is not an issue. So my kids don’t struggle with that.
they spend an insane amount of time outside building contraptions with the neighbors.

I’d love to hear more about the stem activities.
What did you start with?
Do they need a computer?
My son got a circuit kit he just loved but it was so basic . I could see them really going for this.

The KIWICRATES is a STEM subscription, you don't need anything, the kits have everything you need to complete the project in them. They have different kits for all ages, some lines are science oriented, some art oriented, some geogrophy. We've gotten some of the art kits too, they are really wonderful.

The homemade stuff that my son is doing with my husband's help: I have no idea how they are doing it or what they started with. My husband did an apprenticeship with an electrician and a builder as a teen... he's also done some research to learn more when my son showed an interet. It helps that he's in school right now and had easy access to engineers and physicists and mathematicians, I know they gave him some pointers. I know they also tinkered with some kits they bought online. PM me if your interested in learning more, and I can ask him specifically what websites he went to for instructions, what materials he ordered for my son to work with.

amother

Blue

Wed, Apr 17 2019, 4:53 am

DVOM, regarding high schools, I live in Lakewood too and am planning to iyh send him to a school outside of Lakewood. It’s the only option for them not to be on this crazy schedule.

Back to the OP, my son cleans cars pesach time and makes a nice amount of money. He also loves spending time with his friends, going out with them etc. During the winter he spends more time than I’d like on his PlayStation, but now over pesach vacation, he’s actually busier than ever and I haven’t really seen him on it.

DVOM

Wed, Apr 17 2019, 4:54 am

TranquilityAndPeace wrote:

They said the boys would stay up too late if they had the ping pong table in the dorm. IIRC, my son and some friends shlepped it into the dorm without asking permission, and then had to shlep it to be picked up by bulk trash.

I was so annoyed!!!! The only outlet that Yeshiva allowed was a basketball hoop in the middle of their parking lot. My son doesn't like basketball. There were so many rules in that place, all in the name of Torah. The kids were not allowed to walk into a nearby pizza store, ever.

My son is creative and was bored, even though this Yeshiva learned at a top level. We asked the Rosh Yeshiva if he could give nearby 11 and 12 year old kids bar mitzvah lessons. He did that once for a Rebbi's son, and felt so accomplished and made money, all in a Kosher way. The Rosh Yeshiva said no, even though my son wouldn't miss any class time, because it would disturb the atmosphere of the Yeshiva. That's when we pulled him out of that atmosphere.

We have just begun thinking about finding a bar mitzah coach/ big brother/mentor for my oldest son. In our neighborhood there is an older man who does this, but we think it might be great for our son to get these lessons from a young man who can also be a mentor to him. Does your son still do this? Can I PM you?

Amalia

Wed, Apr 17 2019, 5:03 am

DVOM wrote:

Exactly!

And I’d like to add that it very well may be a “because of”, rather than a “despite of” kind of thing.

DVOM

Wed, Apr 17 2019, 5:07 am

amother [ Blue ] wrote:

May I ask where? We have been hearing nice things about the chofetz chaim high schools in cherry hill (50 min away) and Manalapan (40 min away.) Even with a commute, my boys school days would be considerably shorter than if they stayed in Lakewood.

amother

Blue

Wed, Apr 17 2019, 5:13 am

DVOM wrote:

Options we’ve heard about are Ner and Ohavei among others, but I don’t know their schedules. We’re not up to applying for high school yet. We’re more concerned about the education which it why we’ve been looking out of town.

Chayalle

Wed, Apr 17 2019, 5:43 am

Amalia wrote:

Exactly!

And I’d like to add that it very well may be a “because of”, rather than a “despite of” kind of thing.

I always think that when I read about Rabbi Nosson Tzvi Finkel Z"L, Rosh Yeshiva of Mir Yerushalayim (My DH's R"Y). He had such a normal, balanced childhood. I think it's likely he was able to accomplish so much because of that.

Amalia

Wed, Apr 17 2019, 6:05 am

[quote="Chayalle"]I always think that when I read about Rabbi Nosson Tzvi Finkel Z"L, Rosh Yeshiva of Mir Yerushalayim (My DH's R"Y). He had such a normal, balanced childhood. I think it's likely he was able to accomplish so much because of that.[/

Dear Chayalle,

Do you have a good book about R. Finkel that you could recommend?

I sadly stopped reading frum biographies a while ago, one of the reasons being that I could not handle the extremism promoted, sometimes inaccurately.

amother

Magenta

Wed, Apr 17 2019, 6:19 am

DVOM- I'm pretty sure there are schools that might be a good fit for you but your sons might need to board. I think there's one in teaneck, possibly one in Boston...

dancingqueen

Wed, Apr 17 2019, 6:29 am

DVOM wrote:

Why not? Imho there’s not such a vast difference between moderate yeshivish and RWMO.

doctorima

Wed, Apr 17 2019, 6:34 am

amother [ Magenta ] wrote:

DVOM- I'm pretty sure there are schools that might be a good fit for you but your sons might need to board. I think there's one in teaneck, possibly one in Boston...

Yes, check out http://www.ohryisrael.com/

I don't know if they have a dorm or offer boarding, but if they do, this is the type of school you're looking for. Ner Yisrael in Baltimore would be another good option. In the NY area, there's Yesodei Yeshurun in Queens, Ohavei in Riverdale, Shaarei Torah in Monsey, and Heichal in Teaneck, but all would require dorming (if they offer it).