Lakewood pressure getting to me

amother

Slategray

Mon, Apr 22 2019, 4:42 am

amother [ Dodgerblue ] wrote:

Wow this post is so full of narrow-mindedness, because that is what this post is all about. Not to accept the status quo of an „in“ crowd existing and not accepting other people‘s rules.

Why would I want my kids to dress like an „in“ crowd? I want them to dress how they like and not succumb to peer pressure. Before teaching the kids that tzniyus does not have to be schlumpy, who even introduces the idea that tzniyus CAN be shlumpy? Where will it come from? If there were no in and out crowd, people would be wearing whatever is flattering on their bodies, there would have been a diversity of styles and not one single style that is in.

Beautifully dressed does bot equal matching or new. Each individual child can be beautifully dressed in a hand me down.

„For the fashionista like me“ I had to laugh, so you proclaim yourself a fashionista and the others I guess are shlumps? So there are only two types of people out there?

The most powerful thing that would liberate both fashionistas and frumpies would be to stop seeing the world so black and white.

Some of my kids are blonde with green eyes and others are brunette with black eyes and I am not dressing them in the same color. I cringe when I see all kids of a family dressed in mustard and other hues of poop just because that is in, regardless of what actually looks good on the child.

Not at all. I specifically mention my mother who always dresses beautifully and put together. And she’s the last to care about fashion.

I happen to be a fashionista but ok... when I saw slumpy I’m addressing the moms who don’t get dressed. A lot of these women spend an insane amount of money on their kids clothing yet don’t buy a thing for themselves. What message are they sending their children?

Israeli_C

Mon, Apr 22 2019, 5:02 am

amother [ Slategray ] wrote:

That there's more to life than clothes...??
Being a princess is about what's going on inside. KVOD BAT MELECH PNIMA.
I wholly appreciate a woman who looks tznius and presentable, but that has nothing to do with how much money she spent. Or brand labels. What, I'm supposed to care if my clothes have the name of some [non jew] emblazoned on them? Does it make me a better person??
Perhaps if you spent less time looking unfavourably at "slumpy moms who don't get dressed" you'd truly understand why it means to be a bat melech. Do you know what's going on in these 'slumpy' women's lives? Or wallets? Or shalom bayit? Or kids? Do you know what kinds of pressures and difficulties she's facing?
Perhaps she's looking like a slump but feeding a table full of bochurum this shabbat.
Perhaps she's looking like a slump but delivered wholesome meals to a yoledet.
Perhaps she's looking like a slump and doesn't need to be up to par to the arbitrary standards of 'beauty' set by a 'fashionista' with nothing better to do than look down her nose at others.

amother

Slategray

Mon, Apr 22 2019, 6:54 am

Israeli_C wrote:

Did I mention anything of brands?The only time I was into brands was as a teenager. I happen not to spend a lot of money on my clothing I shop around and find good deals, but I am into looking presentable and put together.

amother

Slategray

Mon, Apr 22 2019, 6:55 am

amother [ Pearl ] wrote:

A talmid chacham who goes out with a stain on his clothing is chayav misa. So there is definitely a concept of looking respectable. I agree that it's sad when a woman obviously takes the time to dress her kids beautifully, but is always walking around town in faded, baggy black clothing from head to toe, including scuffed shoes. There should be a balance of wearing clothing that is in good condition and reasonably up to date, without making yourself crazy to look like you stepped out of a clothing ad.

This exactly.

Israeli_C

Mon, Apr 22 2019, 7:11 am

amother [ Pearl ] wrote:

Somehow I can't see how a 'fashionista' is comparable to a talmid chacham....
A 'fashionista' isn't simply seeking to look respectable. She wants to be fashionable according to prevailing trends. Go for it, tbh I'd rather wear something which suits and flatters me than hunting through instagram for what the masses are sporting. But looking down on fellow Jews because they're not interested in partaking in the fashion rat race is disgusting

amother

Slategray

Mon, Apr 22 2019, 8:12 am

Israeli_C wrote:

Sorry you completely misconstrued my post.

Let me get more personal.

I like fashion. I have a taiva for it. I was created with a yetzer hara to always look the best. I have a taiva to wear skirts over my knees and rio up every pair of tights I own.

I have to work hard - really really hard- not to run after the latest fashions. To dress tzniusly.

So The way I elevate my taiva into something good is by finding clothing that are both tasteful and tzniusdik and within my budget. By buying only once a season instead of every week. By making sure my clothing are truly fit for a bas melech. By wearing clothing that are NOT the latest fashions but clothing that are pleasing to my DH Hashem and myself. By looking and feeling like a queen.

Obviously you don’t have the taiva for it and I commend you for that.
Kol HaKavod.
But you are judging ME for my taivos.
For something you can never understand.

I’m not judging anyone who doesn’t chase fashion. Chas vshalom.
You don’t have to chase styles to look put together.
IMO You just have to make sure before you go out your shirt isn’t stained with ketchup and your head covering is in straight and a smile is on your face.

And if it isn’t I won’t judge.

Have a great day and enjoy your chag.

amother

Royalblue

Mon, Apr 22 2019, 8:44 am

amother [ Slategray ] wrote:

Amazing!

amother

Dodgerblue

Mon, Apr 22 2019, 9:27 am

amother [ Slategray ] wrote:

Sorry I don‘t get it. I don‘t live in a large frum community but I live in a large capital city with a vibrant fashion life. What is in style now is loose shirts, t shirts, sweatshirts, loose bottoms midi and maxi skirts, pleated skirts. Hosiery. Chunky sneakers. Baggy cardigans. Layers. Shoulder length cuts.

What is not in style and an immediate give away of a frum person: long sheitel in perfect waves/curls. Tight pencil skirts. Tight tops. Ballerina shoes with rhinestones. A-line skirts. Hair and clothes style not matching: messy bun and preppy clothes, or the other way around: perfectly slyled hair with an otherwise unkempt look. Hair of a preteen on a 50 year old woman (you all know what I mean). A group of ladies all with the same hair and clothing style.

So it is perfectly possible to be tzniyus and even trendy.

I have a taiva for fashion too, I want to wear really original clothes and rare prints like Yoji Yamamoto and other japanese designers, or obviously athletic looks like baggy swestshirts and skirts that are more street style. I can have everything covered, baggy and no slits, but that will be obviously not fit for a princess. I also like clothes with a gothic vibe. I would love to wear blouses with over the top ruche and other detail and elaborate maxi skirts and not feel like I am overdressed.
That is what I call taiva for fashion.

ETA: I would love to be able to wear editorial make up too, like colourful highlighter, blush draping around my eyes or a discrete swipe of colourful eyeshadow

amother

Linen

Mon, Apr 22 2019, 9:39 am

amother [ Dodgerblue ] wrote:

I don't think anyone is judging you if you have a style- any style is fine. And it's completely personal.

The issue some posters are bringing up is women who completely neglect their appearance while overemphasizing their children's style and appearance. It's very sad to see and it also could be a reflection of lack of inner respect, self care, self esteem, etc. Unfortunately it's quite common. IMHO there should be a balance in terms of style and appearance for all family members. And yes, dressing carefully and well is a sign of respect for ones neshama, as a tzelem elokim. This shouldn't be put down or mocked

PinkFridge

Mon, Apr 22 2019, 9:41 am

amother [ Maroon ] wrote:

Wow! so you don't spend a fortune on clothing. But having a good eye and getting great buys for nice things means you spend a "fortune" of your time looking for things. Don't go preaching when your kids look just like all the others but you happened to have found it for a better price. Making yourself nuts at bargain hunting is part of the pressure op is talking about. It just makes you feel good that your not a spender.

I'm a few pages behind but I think the poster wasn't saying that her kids look like all the others all the time, just that she feels they look b'kovodik. Of course, our definitions vary.
But who's to say she spends too much time on this? And how we do know that say Deja New or other resale stores aren't part of her repertoire?

PinkFridge

Mon, Apr 22 2019, 10:03 am

Israeli_C wrote:

It's a much more important lesson to pass on that tznius is not about -
obsessing about how you look
chasing after the latest fashions
spending obscene amounts of money on clothes
placing your SELF WORTH on what you're WEARING

It's true but you can't marginalize kids either. It was easier when I was raising my kids. When things started to matter them, 15+ years ago, I could get away with one Stevenson skirt a season and they were satisfied. I stocked up on headbands at Dots for a $1 when they went on sale, and they would have something fun and matching (to their outfits, not each other). Everyone was doing the same clearance shopping at Old Navy, so when we scored a nice piece, they fit in.
(Stop me before I talk about cardboard boxes Twisted Evil

)

Point is, I'm so glad I'm not dressing kids now. I would probably do as the amother from Lakewood whose post you responded to (p.4) whose older mother of a teen is navigating the new realities, pretty gracefully IMO.

amother

Mint

Mon, Apr 22 2019, 10:07 am

amother [ Slategray ] wrote:

And we have no problem either. We get bags all the time. But my point was growing up we only got bags from my great aunt- shlumpy tee shirts- and we were happy- today we only take from rich people who have really good taste. Smile

I know in one community there is chesed shopping. Closeout buying in east coast stores to stock a chesed store that is by invitation only. Which is how the have nots are dressing their kids b'kavodik. Someone who knows will know that they're not the instagrammers and their kids are wearing last season. But someone who doesn't know will think they spent hours and big bucks.

lcraighten

Mon, Apr 22 2019, 10:29 am

greatfulmom wrote:

I live in Williamsburg where the pressure to match your kids and look like you're going to a wedding is "the in thing" to do. I have my own standards and couldn't care less whether I am in style or whether my kids dont match. I see it as a shallow personality trait, to try to impress when it's robbing you of life's pure joys.

I respect your independence, but you should realize that when you live in a community that is all doing one thing and you do another, you do stick out. As long as your family (kids included) don't suffer or feel weird for being different, keep doing what you are doing! But it is a difficult line to walk when you don't agree with the community you live in.

amother

Fuchsia

Mon, Apr 22 2019, 10:36 am

amother [ Ecru ] wrote:

I think if you dont live in Lakewood, it's hard for you to really understand what the pressure feels like. It's easy to sit behind your keyboard in an out of town community, or Eretz Yisrael, and type things about getting out of the silly race, etc. Come live here for a year and put your kids in school. Try going to the stores, or your kids' schools, "rocking your style" and tell me if you don't get less than preferential treatment. Tell me if the looks, the subtle body language of "you don't fit in here", from other women doesn't bother you. And even if you really are that confident, tell me if your kids, your teens, really have that thick armor to withstand the peer pressure, and the judgment from ADULTS. There is something seriously wrong with the gashmius over humanity culture here, and it's not "all in our minds." Thank you.

I think alot of this is how you take it. I went shopping in a snood (I just find it easier if I'm gonna be trying on clothes, not to deal with a wig) and it made sense to wear something easy to get in and out of. So I didn't look like a million bucks. Still, the saleslady was pleasant, and I did find a nice dress at a somewhat reasonable price. DH was pleased (he's more into me getting something new for Y"T than I am.)

I've been in stores where the saleswoman literally dropped me in favor of someone more trendy-looking, even though I've been ready to spend whatever the price for that particular daughter (stage where her finding something tznius meant more to me than the $) but B"H I have enough confidence that the opinion of a saleswoman who is not someone I care about alot doesn't make me feel pressure, and doesn't blow my day or my mood. And my kids are a work in progress, but if there's one legacy I'd like to pass on to them, it's to be true to themselves and "real" and not let externals be the deciding factor in how they judge others or themselves.

So I would answer your last sentence by saying, not everyone is like that. You will find people like that in every town and culture....but if you look, you will find people who do value others for more than their clothes and accessories.

amother

Fuchsia

Mon, Apr 22 2019, 11:12 am

tigerwife wrote:

Many people are just pressured to have their entire spring/summer wardrobe by Pesach, that’s where the obsession comes from. It’s a little ridiculous, but nothing to worry yourself with. It’s the season. Wait until after YT, everyone will be back to normal more or less.

I’m sure your kids are adorable and will make whatever they wear look super cute, and you will look like a fabulous super mom yourself.

Good YT!

I usually don't push myself to get spring/summer shopping done before Pesach, because they usually end up in winter clothes. This year I did put in effort, because it's a leap year and I figured the weather would likely be warmer (which it is.) Plus there are four days of Chol Hamoed! My 11 year old DD really shot up, and her last year clothes are so not an option for this year - they barely reach the top of her knees, and tznius is important to us - I try to put my $ where my values lie.

So my 11 year old got her new Shabbos and weekday clothes for the season, but my teens both had plenty from last year and told me all they needed were new shoes.

amother

Forestgreen

Mon, Apr 22 2019, 11:46 am

amother [ Slategray ] wrote:

To me Tznius means dressing like the noble princess you are.

Yes you are right about your second paragraph but let me tell you a secret- a person who usually understands Tznius is a person who is a role model (teacher, rebitzen, mother ect) - and even if she doesn’t need to dress put together for her sake she should do it for her charges in MHO.
I remember some teachers we had in school. Kollel wife’s who worked as teachers, no money, yet always looked beautiful and put together.
What I learned- a women is a princess who is allowed to look good even if she is in kollel.
A woman is a queen to her husband who should dress good for him.
A Jewish woman represents royalty and her clothing should reflect that.
Most importantly it was instilled into me that Tznius is beautiful.

The problem arises when "beautiful and put together" = dressed in the latest fashion. If I have an outfit that was the latest fashion 4 years ago and it is still in good condition, it will not be viewed as "put together" by those who know and care about fashion because it is a 4 year old style. Why should it be like that?

I try my best to look neat, clean, and put together. However, I have zero fashion sense and no money, plus many of the latest styles actually look terrible on me. When my clothing gets worn out, I get rid of it. But what is wrong with wearing a nice, clean, pretty outfit that suits my body type but happens not to be the latest style?

One of my DD's is very sensory and also does not have the easiest body type. 90% of the clothing in the frum stores either look ridiculous on her or are uncomfortable for her or both. And yet people will look askance if she wears a pretty dress from Macy's or Target that suits her body and that she finds comfortable. I find this very frustrating.

And so my approach is to continue to wear clothing and to dress my children in clothing that are tzanua, neat, clean and presentable and that feel comfortable and suit our personal tastes and body types and to try not to worry about being judged by others.