Invitations that are not invitations

WhatFor

Sun, May 12 2019, 10:48 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Exactly.

But in addition the issue is the ambiguity. You are putting the onus on the invitee to figure out whether they're truly invited or not and whether they're really expected to attend.

I haven't seen one of those in a while, but in my experience, the invitations without the RSVP card where you're only invited for kabbalas panim and chuppah or the dancing usually specify. They don't explicitly say, not invited for the meal, but they say you're invited for kabbalas panim or whatever part, no?

DrMom

Sun, May 12 2019, 10:49 am

Notsobusy wrote:

A lot of people in our small enclave have very large families, or belong to really large shuls. They would love to invite everyone to the entire wedding but they either can't afford to or it doesn't make sense to them to have a 700 person wedding. So they invite a lot of the people for just the chuppah or chuppah and simchas chosson and kallah.

They really want those people to come but can't invite them to the whole thing. I'm not getting what the issue is. If it's done differently in your circles that's fine, but why does it bother you if someone else does something different?

That's interesting.

In our community, an invitation means that you are *invited.* If you just want to inform everyone about your simcha, you might put it an announcement the weekly shul bulletin. "Mazal Tov to Sara and Avraham on the upcoming wedding of their son, Yitzhak, to Rivka, daughter of Bethuel from Paddan Aram." You wouldn't send them an actual invitation.

Notsobusy

Sun, May 12 2019, 10:52 am

DrMom wrote:

Here too, an invitation means you're invited. You're not necessarily invited to the entire wedding or bar mitzvah, but you are invited to part and they would love for you to come.

Notsobusy

Sun, May 12 2019, 10:54 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

The issue is people who don't know the code and don't know that there are tiers of invitations and may accidentally assume that an invitation is an invitation. Extending an invitation that you expect will be declined is clearly prohibited by halacha.

What do you think would happen if you mistakenly thought you were invited to the whole thing and showed up? There are a few jerks in this world who might say something, but 99% of people would never say anything.

33055

Sun, May 12 2019, 10:58 am

amother [ Lilac ] wrote:

Again in your little enclave.

And that’s great when you’re just dealing with your little enclave. I get it.

But if you expect others to understand the idiosyncrasies of your community, you should at least try to understand the customs and mores of the larger world.

Where it would be rude to just walk into an affair, say hello, and leave. And who would be bothered to get dressed and go somewhere to do it anyway. (That’s honestly the part I don’t get.)

Where if you invite someone, you invite them for the whole shebang. You make the affair you can afford for the number of people you want to invite. Be that brunch or desserts or a 5 course gourmet meal. Where inviting for less, or inviting without wanting the person to attend, would be an insult and a clear money grub.

Where invitation equals gift.

Lilac,

We get dressed out of respect to say a mazol tov. Everyone does in my circles. I like the fact I can go quickly and be home with my family. There are so many simchas, I would be out of my house more than I were home some weeks if I washed for every one.

DrMom

Sun, May 12 2019, 11:00 am

Notsobusy wrote:

Well, all it takes is one impolite person to inform you that you weren't actually supposed to come to make you feel horrible.

Also, if there is assigned seating, you will find yourself in an awkward situation.

aricelli

Sun, May 12 2019, 11:00 am

People would really find it rude
If someone theyre friendly with and not invited showed up To wish you mazel tov? I would take that as a huge hug! That someone who didnt “need” to come went out of their way to feel my joy!
I made a small bar mitzvah and only invited close friends and relatives. A women I’m friendly with showed up and she made my night!

ra_mom

Sun, May 12 2019, 11:34 am

amother [ Lilac ] wrote:

I’ve come to accept, from reading this site, that in some parts of the Jewish world, this is done.

But those in that world also need to learn to accept that outside that small enclave, it reads as “I want a gift from you, but I don’t like you enough to actually pay for you to attend.”

Again, maybe not in your enclave, but elsewhere. In most places. Definitely in my circles.

In those same small enclaves, gifts are not expected from those who are not invited for the whole affair, so the point is moot. They'd be quite taken aback with a gift from someone who didn't attend the entire simcha.

Sun, May 12 2019, 11:36 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I know in the frum world there is a code people are supposed to know for when an invitation is a real invitation and when it's meant to be ignored. (There are halachos against this but that's for a separate discussion.)

I grew up frum but didn't realize until recently, for example, that an invitation without a reply card meant you weren't invited to the meal. Silly me.

Anyway, in what category are e-vites? If I get an emailed invitation, does it require some kind of response? Do I assume I'm not really invited and the real guests get paper invites? Please update me.

To get back to the original question(s):

At this point in the discussion, it's clear that there are differing cultural practices, not just one "frum world."

In my community, and in the non-frum community with which I am familiar, if you receive an invitation, you're invited. There will be a response card (or email address for responses) included.

It is quite possible that you will receive an invitation to a bar mitzvah (for example) but not to the catered lunch. Read the invitation: it will probably say "kiddush following services," or something like that (which might not require an RSVP). If you are invited to a seated luncheon, your invitation will say so. It might be on a separate card. You can't just show up to a catered function uninvited. You won't have a seat. It's ok for the simcha family to celebrate with the entire community at kiddush, and with extended family/out-of-town guests at lunch. It's not rude. On the other hand, it is unheard of (in my experience) to be invited to the chuppah and not the meal, but I know it occurs in other communities. I'm not sure what those invitations would look like.

Evites are real invitations.

So, OP, ask around in your community and see what the standards are. It can still be confusing if you receive an invitation from a different type of community. Then you can come back to Imamother and ask if anyone from ______ would please explain.

momsrus

Sun, May 12 2019, 11:37 am

ra_mom wrote:

What I think she’s saying is. That even though you know a gift is not expected, the people outside this small enclave, don’t know it and find such an invitation rude.

sky

Sun, May 12 2019, 11:37 am

amother [ Lilac ] wrote:

When invited to the chuppah and simchos chassan v’kallah only and not the meal a gift is normally not expected.

ra_mom

Sun, May 12 2019, 11:40 am

amother [ Lilac ] wrote:

If people inside of that enclave invite people who are outside of their enclave, they should include a personalized note. When my brother invited his non Jewish, secular and various colleagues (for the full event) he gave them a full rundown of what to expect the event to be like, what clothes would help them blend in and other things to make them feel comfortable. Just sending them a generic invite would have been rude because they wouldn't understand the nuances. A host has to be gracious to guests.

Ema of 5

Sun, May 12 2019, 11:50 am

amother [ Lilac ] wrote:

You’ve misunderstood. That is how any invitation that excludes the person from the meal would be — is — construed outside of the very small enclave that does this.

And yes, a gift, albeit a smaller one, is generally expected even if one doesn’t attend.

I don’t think anyone who invites people to a wedding for dancing think that way. They want everyone to be able to share in their simcha, but cant afford to PAY for everyone to come. I really don’t think they are saying we want your presents, not you.
And it’s not such a small enclave that does this. It’s very common in yeshivish communities to invite people to a bar mitzva or wedding just for dancing.