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-> Israel related Inquiries & Aliyah Questions
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amother
Amethyst
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 Thu, May 16 2019, 10:34 am
I second FranticFrummie abt Hebrew. Not only your children need to make it a top priority, you and certainly your husband absolutely need to do it too. One of the keys to integrate successfully is to learn the local language, it opens job market, the understanding of Israeli mentality, jokes, understanding of politics and much more.
Raanana is very Anglosaxon but one of the most expensive places in Israel to live in.
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Rappel
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Thu, May 16 2019, 12:21 pm
Anglo areas = expensive.
Homeschool can be isolating, but that's up to the individual arrangement.
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amother
Apricot
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Thu, May 16 2019, 12:28 pm
| Rappel wrote: | Anglo areas = expensive.
Homeschool can be isolating, but that's up to the individual arrangement. |
Thank you for the second comment. Homeschool can be isolating or a wonderful opportunity to grow and bond within the immediate family structure in any country, it has nothing to do with Eretz Yisrael. For prospective Olim who know their kids will not magically master Hebrew or Israeli culture in their year before Aliyah, it can be a much better alternative than bullying, abuse, or isolation in Israeli schools, which is always the dire warning to anyone moving with kids over 8.
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FranticFrummie
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Thu, May 16 2019, 12:29 pm
In Beit Shemesh, Aleph is somewhat expensive, but it's much more affordable in Bet. The downside of Bet is that your kids may have to travel a bit further to get to the schools you want, and it's somewhat more conservative (broad mix from yeshivish to ultra-charedi).
Gimmel is very affordable right now, if you are looking to buy. They are building new apartments constantly, and it looks like when they are done the area will be GORGEOUS. Lots of shopping areas, doctor's offices, playgrounds, shuls, you name it. It's the same mix as Bet, maybe a little more conservative.
Still, in any area I've seen girls and even some women walking around in jeans and t-shirts, and no one seems to give them a hard time.
Speaking of modern, I forgot to mention Old Beit Shemesh. Super affordable, but not very religious. It's a very live and let live area. Many Ethiopian Jews, Russians, and native Israelis. The buildings are not as fancy (because they are old), but it's something to think about. Don't consider getting a lease there until you've had the apartment inspected. Older buildings seem to have dodgy wiring and plumbing.
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amother
Aquamarine
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Thu, May 16 2019, 12:34 pm
| amother [ Apricot ] wrote: | | Thank you for the second comment. Homeschool can be isolating or a wonderful opportunity to grow and bond within the immediate family structure in any country, it has nothing to do with Eretz Yisrael. For prospective Olim who know their kids will not magically master Hebrew or Israeli culture in their year before Aliyah, it can be a much better alternative than bullying, abuse, or isolation in Israeli schools, which is always the dire warning to anyone moving with kids over 8. |
Sorry if you had a bad experience, but I'm sure you know that bullying, abuse and isolation can happen in American schools as well. Again, if you move to an area with lots of Anglos, the school will probably be used to parental expectations. Doesn't mean everything will be perfect, but it's quite a stretch to suggest that any child who comes after the age of 8 is going to be bullied.
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amother
Apricot
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Thu, May 16 2019, 12:44 pm
| amother [ Aquamarine ] wrote: | | Sorry if you had a bad experience, but I'm sure you know that bullying, abuse and isolation can happen in American schools as well. Again, if you move to an area with lots of Anglos, the school will probably be used to parental expectations. Doesn't mean everything will be perfect, but it's quite a stretch to suggest that any child who comes after the age of 8 is going to be bullied. |
I think you misunderstood me. I did not "have a bad experience," we live in the US right now. All prospective Olim are constantly warned that children over age 8 do not learn the language quickly or adjust well, and are often either very isolated or the victims of various abuses (by peers or adults in the school system) because they are so vulnerable. We are given the dual message of "Come, we are all one family waiting for you to come to your true home" and "beware, most kids who come after age 8 grow disenchanted and angry and rebellious.". Everything I wrote above is true, this is what all prospective Olim are told in my community ( and all similar American communities). But when someone dares to think out of the box and suggest a way to make it work, their ideas are also shot down - "bad idea, won't work". Such is the lot of immigrants...
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chanchy123
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Thu, May 16 2019, 12:57 pm
If you want your children to live in Israel successfuli don't homeschool. Homeschooling Imis wonderful I know several families who do it. It's not for immigrants fresh off the boat who want to integrate into society.
Your children will need the melting pot of the Israeli educational system for better or worse.
Try the cheaper neighborhoods in Yerushalayim (Har Choma, and not so cheap Arnona). Gush communities, Ginot Shomron, certain areas of Maale Adumim. Maybe Mazkeret Batya, Modiin is large maybe look at different communities there and also Beit Shemesh. Maybe Givat Zeev.
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tsfat18
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Thu, May 16 2019, 1:00 pm
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Ok I know I am all over the place, but one more area we we're thinking of - Rehovot.
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tsfat18
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Thu, May 16 2019, 1:30 pm
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Thank you for such detailed about beit shemesh. I appreciate the specifics. Will look into it
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amother
Aquamarine
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Thu, May 16 2019, 1:50 pm
| amother [ Apricot ] wrote: | | I think you misunderstood me. I did not "have a bad experience," we live in the US right now. All prospective Olim are constantly warned that children over age 8 do not learn the language quickly or adjust well, and are often either very isolated or the victims of various abuses (by peers or adults in the school system) because they are so vulnerable. We are given the dual message of "Come, we are all one family waiting for you to come to your true home" and "beware, most kids who come after age 8 grow disenchanted and angry and rebellious.". Everything I wrote above is true, this is what all prospective Olim are told in my community ( and all similar American communities). But when someone dares to think out of the box and suggest a way to make it work, their ideas are also shot down - "bad idea, won't work". Such is the lot of immigrants... |
So you don't live in Israel? I do, and actually my youngest was 8 (going into 3rd grade) when we came. I realize that my personal experience isn't proof that everyone will do well, but it does prove that not everyone does badly.
No one is insulting you. It's just that when you have experience, you have a sense for what works.
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essie14
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Thu, May 16 2019, 1:54 pm
| FranticFrummie wrote: | In Beit Shemesh, Aleph is somewhat expensive, but it's much more affordable in Bet. The downside of Bet is that your kids may have to travel a bit further to get to the schools you want, and it's somewhat more conservative (broad mix from yeshivish to ultra-charedi).
Gimmel is very affordable right now, if you are looking to buy. They are building new apartments constantly, and it looks like when they are done the area will be GORGEOUS. Lots of shopping areas, doctor's offices, playgrounds, shuls, you name it. It's the same mix as Bet, maybe a little more conservative.
Still, in any area I've seen girls and even some women walking around in jeans and t-shirts, and no one seems to give them a hard time.
Speaking of modern, I forgot to mention Old Beit Shemesh. Super affordable, but not very religious. It's a very live and let live area. Many Ethiopian Jews, Russians, and native Israelis. The buildings are not as fancy (because they are old), but it's something to think about. Don't consider getting a lease there until you've had the apartment inspected. Older buildings seem to have dodgy wiring and plumbing. |
nononononononono..........
Ramat Bet Shemesh Bet is where the extremist chareidim live. Stay FAR FAR FAR AWAY!!!!
I think FF means Bet Shemesh as opposed to Ramat Bet Shemesh.
Bet Shemesh includes Old Bet Shemesh (no Anglos) and the Anglo areas of Sheinfeld, Givat Savion, Nofei Aviv and a few more.
RAMAT Bet Shemesh (Ramat means suburb) has 3 sections, plus 2 more planned.
Alef = RBSA - known as an Anglo bubble but has plenty of Israelis as well. LOTS of olim. HUGE mix of hashkafot. Israeli & American chareidi through DL Lite. Some of the sub-neighborhoods are Ramat Shilo, Mishkafayim, M3, Ganei Ha'ela.
Bet = RBSB - this is the Bet Shemesh you near about in the news where the extremists live and cause all the trouble. RBSB is between RBSA and Bet Shemesh (specifically Sheinfeld).
Gimmel = RBSG - newest subsection of Ramat Bet Shemesh. All new construction. Infrastructure not 100% completed, but cheaper than Alef. More chareidi than Alef. less of a mix.
Daled and Hey - planned for the future
Last edited by essie14 on Thu, May 16 2019, 1:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
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amother
Apricot
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Thu, May 16 2019, 1:55 pm
| amother [ Aquamarine ] wrote: | So you don't live in Israel? I do, and actually my youngest was 8 (going into 3rd grade) when we came. I realize that my personal experience isn't proof that everyone will do well, but it does prove that not everyone does badly.
No one is insulting you. It's just that when you have experience, you have a sense for what works. |
That's encouraging that your children did so well at those ages! I am not insulted, just stating what we prospective Olim are up against in terms of double messages. Please post all about your kids' positive experiences! What community? What type? What schools? Thank you!
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Rappel
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Thu, May 16 2019, 2:13 pm
| amother [ Apricot ] wrote: | | Thank you for the second comment. Homeschool can be isolating or a wonderful opportunity to grow and bond within the immediate family structure in any country, it has nothing to do with Eretz Yisrael. For prospective Olim who know their kids will not magically master Hebrew or Israeli culture in their year before Aliyah, it can be a much better alternative than bullying, abuse, or isolation in Israeli schools, which is always the dire warning to anyone moving with kids over 8. |
Agreed! I'm impressed that you're so attuned to your children. That's the most important thing. 
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amother
Aquamarine
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Thu, May 16 2019, 2:14 pm
| amother [ Apricot ] wrote: | | That's encouraging that your children did so well at those ages! I am not insulted, just stating what we prospective Olim are up against in terms of double messages. Please post all about your kids' positive experiences! What community? What type? What schools? Thank you! |
Sorry I can't be too specific. I feel like I've outed myself enough, even as amother.
It wasn't all roses and sunshine from day one, but it was a family adventure, and, though we don't homeschool, we do have a strong sense of family. When our kids look back, they say that was very important to them. They always felt like we had their backs.
In the US we would be called MO, I think here we'd be categorized as torani. We actually sent some of our kids to a "less frum" elementary school than they had gone to before aliyah, because it had better services for olim and a more touchy-feely vibe than the "frummer"school. Basically for the first year, our kids only really took music, gym, and art. They sat in on the other classes when they weren't in ulpan, but weren't required to do any more than they felt they could.
Dh and I both speak and read Hebrew comfortably, though even after many years, no one mistakes me for a Sabra. We had a financial cushion when we came, and that meant we weren't immediately stressed out about finding work.
So my recipe, I think, is emotional and financial stability, flexibility about stuff that doesn't matter in the long term, and lots of love for your kids.
Some people are naturally better at adapting than others. That's life.
I think that especially in the American yeshivish world, there's this attitude aliyah will turn your kids off religion. I think that's lashon hara about Israel. For some kids, moving from Chicago to Cleveland is too much of a culture shock to withstand. And some kids can make aliyah and hit the ground running. You know your family best. But don't sell yourself short. Coming here was wonderful for us, and we're immensely proud of how well our children have done.
ETA, I'm embarrassed that I didn't mention that we davened a lot!
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amother
Amethyst
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Thu, May 16 2019, 2:28 pm
| amother [ Aquamarine ] wrote: | Sorry I can't be too specific. I feel like I've outed myself enough, even as amother.
It wasn't all roses and sunshine from day one, but it was a family adventure, and, though we don't homeschool, we do have a strong sense of family. When our kids look back, they say that was very important to them. They always felt like we had their backs.
In the US we would be called MO, I think here we'd be categorized as torani. We actually sent some of our kids to a "less frum" elementary school than they had gone to before aliyah, because it had better services for olim and a more touchy-feely vibe than the "frummer"school. Basically for the first year, our kids only really took music, gym, and art. They sat in on the other classes when they weren't in ulpan, but weren't required to do any more than they felt they could.
Dh and I both speak and read Hebrew comfortably, though even after many years, no one mistakes me for a Sabra. We had a financial cushion when we came, and that meant we weren't immediately stressed out about finding work.
So my recipe, I think, is emotional and financial stability, flexibility about stuff that doesn't matter in the long term, and lots of love for your kids.
Some people are naturally better at adapting than others. That's life.
I think that especially in the American yeshivish world, there's this attitude aliyah will turn your kids off religion. I think that's lashon hara about Israel. For some kids, moving from Chicago to Cleveland is too much of a culture shock to withstand. And some kids can make aliyah and hit the ground running. You know your family best. But don't sell yourself short. Coming here was wonderful for us, and we're immensely proud of how well our children have done. |
The bolded abv. I mean, seriously? Oy vey.
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amother
Apricot
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Thu, May 16 2019, 2:39 pm
| amother [ Aquamarine ] wrote: | Sorry I can't be too specific. I feel like I've outed myself enough, even as amother.
It wasn't all roses and sunshine from day one, but it was a family adventure, and, though we don't homeschool, we do have a strong sense of family. When our kids look back, they say that was very important to them. They always felt like we had their backs.
In the US we would be called MO, I think here we'd be categorized as torani. We actually sent some of our kids to a "less frum" elementary school than they had gone to before aliyah, because it had better services for olim and a more touchy-feely vibe than the "frummer"school. Basically for the first year, our kids only really took music, gym, and art. They sat in on the other classes when they weren't in ulpan, but weren't required to do any more than they felt they could.
Dh and I both speak and read Hebrew comfortably, though even after many years, no one mistakes me for a Sabra. We had a financial cushion when we came, and that meant we weren't immediately stressed out about finding work.
So my recipe, I think, is emotional and financial stability, flexibility about stuff that doesn't matter in the long term, and lots of love for your kids.
Some people are naturally better at adapting than others. That's life.
I think that especially in the American yeshivish world, there's this attitude aliyah will turn your kids off religion. I think that's lashon hara about Israel. For some kids, moving from Chicago to Cleveland is too much of a culture shock to withstand. And some kids can make aliyah and hit the ground running. You know your family best. But don't sell yourself short. Coming here was wonderful for us, and we're immensely proud of how well our children have done.
ETA, I'm embarrassed that I didn't mention that we davened a lot! |
Ok, thank you! Very encouraging and helpful to read! It sounds like you found a veeery understanding school b"H. Very wise advice about the financial cushion, so the pressure to work can be pushed off a bit while focusing on the kids' adjustment....would you be comfortable expounding on your kids' social adjustment? Did they have trouble making friends at school or in the neighborhood? Did they feel language was a barrier even with English speaking friends? Was there a sense of welcome and compassion toward children from the US, or were they the "other" until they broke in? I am assuming you moved into an Anglo neighborhood...
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Rappel
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Thu, May 16 2019, 3:01 pm
| amother [ Aquamarine ] wrote: | Sorry I can't be too specific. I feel like I've outed myself enough, even as amother.
It wasn't all roses and sunshine from day one, but it was a family adventure, and, though we don't homeschool, we do have a strong sense of family. When our kids look back, they say that was very important to them. They always felt like we had their backs.
In the US we would be called MO, I think here we'd be categorized as torani. We actually sent some of our kids to a "less frum" elementary school than they had gone to before aliyah, because it had better services for olim and a more touchy-feely vibe than the "frummer"school. Basically for the first year, our kids only really took music, gym, and art. They sat in on the other classes when they weren't in ulpan, but weren't required to do any more than they felt they could.
Dh and I both speak and read Hebrew comfortably, though even after many years, no one mistakes me for a Sabra. We had a financial cushion when we came, and that meant we weren't immediately stressed out about finding work.
So my recipe, I think, is emotional and financial stability, flexibility about stuff that doesn't matter in the long term, and lots of love for your kids.
Some people are naturally better at adapting than others. That's life.
I think that especially in the American yeshivish world, there's this attitude aliyah will turn your kids off religion. I think that's lashon hara about Israel. For some kids, moving from Chicago to Cleveland is too much of a culture shock to withstand. And some kids can make aliyah and hit the ground running. You know your family best. But don't sell yourself short. Coming here was wonderful for us, and we're immensely proud of how well our children have done.
ETA, I'm embarrassed that I didn't mention that we davened a lot! |
This needs to be pinned somewhere. Thank you for sharing!
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amother
Aquamarine
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Thu, May 16 2019, 3:22 pm
| amother [ Apricot ] wrote: | | Ok, thank you! Very encouraging and helpful to read! It sounds like you found a veeery understanding school b"H. Very wise advice about the financial cushion, so the pressure to work can be pushed off a bit while focusing on the kids' adjustment....would you be comfortable expounding on your kids' social adjustment? Did they have trouble making friends at school or in the neighborhood? Did they feel language was a barrier even with English speaking friends? Was there a sense of welcome and compassion toward children from the US, or were they the "other" until they broke in? I am assuming you moved into an Anglo neighborhood... |
Yes, we did move to an Anglo neighborhood, and my kids were pretty much exclusively friends with other English speakers. That has tapered off over time, but for most of my kids, most of their close friends are still English speakers. Obviously they interact with a much broader spectrum of people now. (We don't have any Israeli in-laws - yet.) I think they will always see themselves as immigrants, but as successful immigrants. And that's fine with me.
The kids at school were generally welcoming and kind, having been through the aliyah experience themselves. And the Israelis tried. If anything, I think my kids rebuffed them, because it was too exhausting to speak Hebrew all the time. Of course, kids are kids. You'll have the mean girls and queen bees wherever you go. Luckily, those are the minority.
Naturally, the extroverts and the introverts coped differently. Some kids needed lots of social interaction and some needed hardly any. So it was important to let them be themselves.
Hope this helps.
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ProudMommie
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Sun, May 19 2019, 1:51 pm
"Group #2 almost always have successful aliyot - their passion pulls them through the hard times. Group #1 almost always doesn't, because landing in Israel doesn't solve your problems, and because you need a real dose of love and determination to get through your "shana rishona" in Eretz Yisrael. The land tries to spit you out. It tests you, shapes you, and ultimately accepts you when you pass. But you have to be willing to stay here forever, through everything, and it will test you"
It is so hurtful and ridiculous to constantly keep repeating this over and over again. Eretz Yisroel does not yet have the infrastructure that olim who are serious about Torah and Mitzvos need in order to make a transition. Good people coming here, trying their best with emunah etc etc.. with a tefilla always on their lips and failing because ultimately they can't provide their children with a proper chinuch and chareidi community is not so open to them if their Hebrew is imperfect and especially if they are baaley teshuva etc. etc. without big money or big protektsia, they can't make it here. If you think that EY spits us out, I disagree. NO ONE said it is time to go to EY. No one. We are in golus and Medina Yisroel is FAR, FAR from the geula. As far as can be actually.. We may be in eretz Hakodesh but have to deal with an atheistic country that squeezes us on all sides, plus 700 plus rockets that just fell oh but that was really nothing ... no biggie, though people died and were injured.. its ok.. plus a chareidi community that never asked us to come from America lechatchila to put more pressure on their resources.. .
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amother
Aquamarine
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Sun, May 19 2019, 2:00 pm
| ProudMommie wrote: | "Group #2 almost always have successful aliyot - their passion pulls them through the hard times. Group #1 almost always doesn't, because landing in Israel doesn't solve your problems, and because you need a real dose of love and determination to get through your "shana rishona" in Eretz Yisrael. The land tries to spit you out. It tests you, shapes you, and ultimately accepts you when you pass. But you have to be willing to stay here forever, through everything, and it will test you"
It is so hurtful and ridiculous to constantly keep repeating this over and over again. Eretz Yisroel does not yet have the infrastructure that olim who are serious about Torah and Mitzvos need in order to make a transition. |
It is so hurtful and ridiculous to hear that if you aren't charedi, then you aren't serious about Torah and Mitzvos.
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