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amother

Beige

Wed, May 22 2019, 9:35 pm

amother [ Jetblack ] wrote:

I have only a few kids, all thje same gender. My youngest is 9 and I've been trying for 6 years. Way too often, I get "oh you didn't want any more?"
what are you supposed to answer?

That’s so inappropriate of them.
You should say “You are totally right. Excuse me while I go find my husband and try again...”

amother

Salmon

Thu, May 23 2019, 6:17 am

SuperWify wrote:

Im sorry but a woman does not need a heter for BC.

Her DH needs it.

I honestly don’t understand the women that have back to back pregnancies because BC is not an “ideal”. (Like my mom and many others.) it feels cruel to make a person
always TTC, pregnant, or nursing (to avoid pregnancy) unless there are “extenuating circumstances”.

I look up to you that you can handle so many kids, pregnancies, and newborns.

Truly.

But please don’t continue to spread the lies that bc is only permitted when absolutely necessary. There are many, many rabbanim that are very understanding of the modern day frum woman and would give at least 6 months- 2 years after a baby is born- no questions asked. More then that they might ask questions, true, but if the situation is explained properly, a heter should be given.
No woman should have to beg to be allowed to not have a baby.
No woman should believe that bc is assur.

Edited for spelling

I nod my head to all.
There is a status aspect in some communities to have as many as just possible within the shortest time frame.

SuperWify

Thu, May 23 2019, 8:26 am

amother [ Olive ] wrote:

Respectfully, there certainly are poskim who hold this way. There also are others who don't. I don't believe it's fair to call it a lie when R' Moshe Feinstein and others absolutely paskened in this manner.

The real question among poskim in the RW world is how to define "absolutely neccessary." Many poskim today agree that 6m to 2 years IS absolutely necessary for most families in today's generation where women don't neccessarily nurse clean or nurse at all or get pregnant anyhow.

Others feel that "absolutely necessary" truly means cases of possible health issues or dysfuction.

And there's a range in between as well.

Anyone in the Chassidish or RW Litvish world who choose to take halacha seriously fall somewhere in this range.

We women do understandably get very emotional about this topic. But to say BC is totally muttar in all circumstances is most certainly not the emes for this particular community.

I'm saying this as a woman who spaces her kids because I cannot handle one every year! According to my Rav, that makes BC absolutely neccessary and a total lechatchila FOR ME.

Rav Moshe held is was very very bedieved because of the staining issues and subsequent shailos the pills had back then.
Things have since changed.
But, maybe my terminology was a bit strong and I apologize.

As a woman who asks shailos I will repeat what I clarified with my rav.
BC is completely muttar for a woman to use. There is no halachic issue with using it.
There is however, a halachic problem for a man to be with his wife if she is on BC. He needs a heter.
I repeat- HE NEEDS IT.
A man technically should be the one shopping for a heter. (And yes I say shopping because of a rav refuses a woman desperate enough to ask she should find another one. When she goes to the second rabbi she can and should explain to him she was refused or got too little time from rabbi A.)
However because men won’t deal with the consequences of unprotected sx they won’t describe the situation as well as they should and therefore the woman is strongly encouraged to call.

You didn’t answer my question. Which woman *IS* able to have a child every year? To be able to handle her house, home, husband and other kids while being constantly pregnant? To be able to be healthy emotionally while doing so and raise her children in a healthy way.

I ask- Is this the ideal? Is this truly the ultimate goal of a Jewish couple? To procreate as often as humanly possible?
We know we have a mitzva to guard and take care of our bodies; having back to back pregnancies is not conducive for that physically mentally or spiritually. Does our husbands mitzva of procreation take presence over our health and sanity and that of our families?

Let’s be real. Most people can’t have a baby every year. It really can effect the family in many many ways. If there are yechidim who can, without dropping too many balls- Kol hakovod. Really.
But I don’t believe the majority can do it without big repercussions on the rest of the family.
And I do agree that on this subject the majority is woefully uninformed.

To note- I don’t care about other people’s family planning decisions (or lack thereof) but I am clarifying for any woman out there that can benefit from reading this.

Iymnok

Thu, May 23 2019, 8:33 am

The Mitzvah of Peru Urevu app,is only to men. The Torah does not mechayev a person to put themselves in a life threatening situation. For women it’s voluntary.

ectomorph

Thu, May 23 2019, 8:37 am

amother [ Olive ] wrote:

Thank you.

SuperWify

Thu, May 23 2019, 12:23 pm

SuperWify wrote:

Amother Olive, I’d really love to hear your views on this.

mig100

Thu, May 23 2019, 12:35 pm

SuperWify wrote:

...

As a woman who asks shailos I will repeat what I clarified with my rav.
BC is completely muttar for a woman to use. There is no halachic issue with using it.
There is however, a halachic problem for a man to be with his wife if she is on BC. He needs a heter.
I repeat- HE NEEDS IT.
A man technically should be the one shopping for a heter. (And yes I say shopping because of a rav refuses a woman desperate enough to ask she should find another one. When she goes to the second rabbi she can and should explain to him she was refused or got too little time from rabbi A.)
However because men won’t deal with the consequences of unprotected sx they won’t describe the situation as well as they should and therefore the woman is strongly encouraged to call.

You didn’t answer my question. Which woman *IS* able to have a child every year? To be able to handle her house, home, husband and other kids while being constantly pregnant? To be able to be healthy emotionally while doing so and raise her children in a healthy way.

I...

Let’s be real. Most people can’t have a baby every year. It really can effect the family in many many ways. If there are yechidim who can, without dropping too many balls- Kol hakovod. Really.
But I don’t believe the majority can do it without big repercussions on the rest of the family.
And I do agree that on this subject the majority is woefully uninformed.

To note- I don’t care about other people’s family planning decisions (or lack thereof) but I am clarifying for any woman out there that can benefit from reading this.

superwify- I dont want to get too involved here. though actually just read through your post and the amother olives twice. heres how I understand them

for the most part- I dont find them to be so contradictory- you seem mostly in agreement - you are just discussing from a different angle.

amother olive clearly wrote:

Quote:

Many poskim today agree that 6m to 2 years IS absolutely necessary for most families in today's generation where women don't neccessarily nurse clean or nurse at all or get pregnant anyhow.

your only difference is "olive' said the women needs a heter. your saying her dh does. true perhaps.

on a PRACTICAL level- a husband needing a heter is not very different to me than a wife needing one. if we were having halachic discussion of cours there is a difference. if we are discussing practical situation that affects both of them- to me its basically the same thing.

'nuf said for now

amother

Cobalt

Thu, May 23 2019, 2:24 pm

amother [ Vermilion ] wrote:

I think people project their own feelings when they say enough no more kids they can be thinking I can’t have kids now for whatever reason, it’s hurting me to see you pregnant every day.

I don't think people are jealous of mother's with tons of kids who can't cope. Some moms I look at them and I feel sorry for them or for their kids or both. No I'm not jealous but some people should clearly be on bc.

amother

Cobalt

Thu, May 23 2019, 2:26 pm

amother [ Salmon ] wrote:

If she was Hispanic or Afro-American or Asian or any other non-white group, I am not surprised that colleagues didn't say a word. PC is all and above everything these days.

She was white actually. Not even religious or anything. She just got pregnant from a bunch of different guys.

mig100

Thu, May 23 2019, 7:13 pm

amother [ Cobalt ] wrote:

Those r not the women we r referring to ijn this thread

Ravenclaw

Thu, May 23 2019, 7:48 pm

Iymnok wrote:

The Mitzvah of Peru Urevu app,is only to men. The Torah does not mechayev a person to put themselves in a life threatening situation. For women it’s voluntary.

Also Peru urevu means a boy and a girl, not 8 of each gender.

SuperWify

Fri, May 24 2019, 9:11 am

mig100 wrote:

Maybe we both agree bc is muttar if you get a heter.
But it stops there.
Another olive is making it sound like an elusive hard to get heter used only in extreme circumstances.
I’m trying to point out that you can easily get a heter if your ask for it.

My main point is- please don’t think it’s assur except for extreme situations and hard to get. Please don’t think the burden is on you. If DH can’t get a heter then you go back to your rav (or a different one) and get what you need. No one can force you to have a child you are not ready for. Please don’t just have a baby because your DH can’t get the heter HE needs.

SuperWify

Fri, May 24 2019, 9:12 am

Ravenclaw wrote:

Also Peru urevu means a boy and a girl, not 8 of each gender.

ectomorph

Fri, May 24 2019, 9:39 am

Ravenclaw wrote:

Also Peru urevu means a boy and a girl, not 8 of each gender.

Each additional child is a mitzva too.

Like giving tzedaka. The more the better.

amother

Floralwhite

Fri, May 24 2019, 9:57 am

ectomorph wrote:

Each additional child is a mitzva too.

Like giving tzedaka. The more the better.

A rav once told me when I was machmir on myself on a taharas hamishpacha related issue: you are being makpid on TH, but maikel on your shalom bayis.

If a mother is coping well, then sure, the more the better. If a mother is not coping well and the family is suffering, well then, it's not true the more the better. Having more children when the family is not doing well is being machmir on pru urvu but meikel on..many things (chanoch l'naar al pi darko? shalom bayis? etc.).

amother

Ivory

Fri, May 24 2019, 10:03 am

ectomorph wrote:

Each additional child is a mitzva too.

Like giving tzedaka. The more the better.

It's not good to give as much as possible. The more the better?
Is it good to give 80% of your salary to tzedaka?
Or even 20%, if it means your spouse and kids will be resentful?

ectomorph

Fri, May 24 2019, 10:35 am

Agreed. But an additional child is still a mitzva.

In other words, having 16 kids is a mitzva if you can handle it.

It is not correct to say that having 16 kids is not a mitzva. It is a mitzva. Not a mitzva everyone can do.

Giving a million dollars to tzedaka is a mitzva. Not everyone can do that. Some of us can only give 5 dollars to tzedaka. But if you can give a million dollars to tzedaka you should.

amother

Orchid

Fri, May 24 2019, 10:43 am

ectomorph wrote:

Personally, I don't believe having 16 kids is ever a mitzva. I think that no woman can give her kids the proper attention if she has so many. In that kind of family, the older ones are inevitably parenting the younger ones, and someone falls through the cracks.

This happens in smaller families, too, but 16 isn't a mitzva. It's irresponsible and unfair to the kids.

Last edited by amother on Mon, Jul 08 2019, 11:40 am; edited 1 time in total

ectomorph

Fri, May 24 2019, 10:58 am

smileforamile wrote:

This is not true. I have seen wonderful healthy families with 16. And unhealthy families of 2-5. It's all about how you manage it.

There is a beautiful family in Kensington, where I grew up, with 20+ children. Every family answers for itself. But it is definitely wrong to assume that a large family is not able to care for their children.

amother

Orchid

Fri, May 24 2019, 11:08 am

SuperWify wrote:

SuperWify, you know that I 100% agree that women can and should use bc. I also believe that there are still way too many rabbanim who are not responsive to the change of times and the magnified difficulty in raising children today.

At the same time, as amother Olive was saying, your Rav's view is not shared by many of the yeshivish poskim. Yes, pru u'rvu is the man's mitzva, and there are obviously opinions that hold that only the man needs a heter to be intimate with his wife when she is on bc. There was even one poster here who wrote that her Rav told her she can use bc as long as her husband doesn't know about it (which to me seems really deceptive and not good for a marriage).

However, there are many others that say that a) it's not so simple that a woman can sterilize herself, even temporarily; b) since the husband and wife are married, it's a moot point. Yes, technically the man needs the heter, but as you said, the woman needs to make the call anyway.

Also, saying this with utmost respect. I know that my closely-spaced pregnancies were very hard for me. You know that you couldn't handle having two kids close together. But there are those who can. Two, even three. To have 5, 6, 7 one after another may be more questionable, but there are women who can. If they want to and their DHs are on board, what often happens is that the first few years are really difficult, but then it becomes much easier as they get older.

I stand by what I said that 16 is excessive for anyone.

I do agree with the posters who say that we must talk about this issue, and talk about it a lot. There are way too many young women who think that bc is assur. I recently had an e-mail conversation with a girl from my high school class, and it was pretty evident that she believed so (3 kids under 3, and she wrote, "Well, it's not up to us...")

Last edited by amother on Mon, Jul 08 2019, 11:40 am; edited 1 time in total

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