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Israeli_C




 
 
 


Post  Mon, May 20 2019, 7:43 am
Since when has it become so socially acceptable to tell people that they've had enough kids or to go on BC? I brought my twins to the doctor recently and the secretary (who's actually a really lovely women and I've never had issues with her) said to me "what a lovely family! but that's enough. You don't have a job. Need to feed all those kids!" She's not aware that my husband not only works (shocker) but earns enough for a very comfortable lifestyle. It's far from being my first 'encounter' with these kinds of comments, and it shocks me each and every time. I see it being thrown around on threads on this board all the time and all I can think is "... seriously? And you are...??"

What happened us?! Is this something new or am I late in the game?!
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Squishy




 
 
 


Post  Mon, May 20 2019, 7:47 am
You think yentas are a new thing? They have existed since speech was invented and probably before.
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invisiblecircus




 
 
 


Post  Mon, May 20 2019, 7:49 am
Israeli_C wrote:
Since when has it become so socially acceptable to tell people that they've had enough kids or to go on BC?


It's never been socially acceptable.
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Mommyg8




 
 
 


Post  Mon, May 20 2019, 7:53 am
I think it's an Israeli thing. Or a Jewish thing. You know... we are all one family.... still completely inappropriate.
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amother




Teal


Post  Mon, May 20 2019, 7:55 am
It's the same kinds of people who will sit down next to an overweight woman and tell her about weight loss surgery, or tell a woman married more than a year without kids about segulos. It was and is never ok but obnoxious people will always exist.
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Israeli_C




 
 
 


Post  Mon, May 20 2019, 8:05 am
Mommyg8 wrote:
I think it's an Israeli thing. Or a Jewish thing. You know... we are all one family.... still completely inappropriate.


That's what I was wondering. Is it an Israeli thing? I've never heard it said in Europe. Then again, in Europe (at least among Xtians) they're all having little to no kids and probably need to encouragement. I was just completely taken aback because this is a woman I LIKE. Was she trying to give me ''friendly advice''?
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amother




Teal


Post  Mon, May 20 2019, 8:14 am
Israeli_C wrote:
That's what I was wondering. Is it an Israeli thing? I've never heard it said in Europe. Then again, in Europe (at least among Xtians) they're all having little to no kids and probably need to encouragement. I was just completely taken aback because this is a woman I LIKE. Was she trying to give me ''friendly advice''?


Definitely not exclusive to Israel. Probably more common there though. I've gotten it in all kinds of situations in America and obviously, right here on ima. The very first piece of advice (or second if therapy is mentioned first) is always birth control even with no background knowledge other than a non birth control related post.
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invisiblecircus




 
 
 


Post  Mon, May 20 2019, 8:23 am
Israeli_C wrote:
That's what I was wondering. Is it an Israeli thing? I've never heard it said in Europe. Then again, in Europe (at least among Xtians) they're all having little to no kids and probably need to encouragement. I was just completely taken aback because this is a woman I LIKE. Was she trying to give me ''friendly advice''?


I live in Europe and I've had it said to me more than once. The funny thing is I only have 3 kids so not exactly a large family!
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Israeli_C




 
 
 


Post  Mon, May 20 2019, 8:26 am
invisiblecircus wrote:
I live in Europe and I've had it said to me more than once. The funny thing is I only have 3 kids so not exactly a large family!

These days in Europe, it's borderline large family. Unless you're a Muslim Tongue Out
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amother




Cerise


Post  Mon, May 20 2019, 9:14 am
I live in the US. When my non Jewish neighbor realized recently that I'm pregnant with number 4 (my kids are actually well spaced) she had all kinds of weird comments. She's generally a very pleasant person and I honestly was surprised to hear anything besides "congratulations," but she seemed very taken aback and not too happy for me. Whatever.
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amother




Floralwhite


Post  Mon, May 20 2019, 9:16 am
Ok, def going to go anon for this one.
To start off, what the lady said to you OP is exceedingly rude. Whatever I'm about to say below, I am not advocating rudeness. I also want to point out that IRL I've never told, hinted, or in any way insinuated that people go on BC.
So what IS my point?

That unlike the other examples of rudeness (telling an overweight woman about weight loss options, or married woman with no kids about segulas), the act of using BC or not is a controllable choice. And I believe that telling women that there's an option to use BC (while sounding patronizing) is actually doing a service to those women who think it's totally assur. It's not. Some rabbonim do hold that, but if push comes to shove (such as family not really coping well and the rav doesn't seem to understand- I mean, why should he? He's not a member of you household), then well, it may be time to find a rav who does understand. There are entire gemarahs that address BC. There are millions of rebbetzins throughout millenia who have used it. It's not assur. But so many women are told it is, I almost feel it is my "good deed for the day" to tell them otherwise.

I will never forget a conversation I had with a friend and neighbor who was completely overwhelmed with her back/to back pregnancies. She said, jokingly, if BC weren't totally assur I would definitely use it!
I relayed this conversation to my dh who said, "she may think it's assur but her DH who learns gemarah all day knows that it is definitely not!" And I was upset and frustrated that the person who bears the brunt of not using BC is being kept in the dark.

The short answer to you, OP, is that sadly, many women need to hear this because in their otherwise carefully controlled environment, no one is telling them. And sometimes, a comment can be a lifeline that will plant a seed of hope to otherwise desperate women.
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amother




Blonde


Post  Mon, May 20 2019, 9:22 am
Your kids are very close together. Maybe she was just concerned for your health.
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keym




 
 
 


Post  Mon, May 20 2019, 9:29 am
Some of it is a generational thing.
My mother and mother in law both raised their children in a time (late 70s until 90s) where using bc or getting a heter was unheard of.
So when my mil or an aunt or someone says something like "maybe you should take a break for now" I assume they really think I don't know what's available.
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amother




Rose


Post  Mon, May 20 2019, 9:37 am
amother [ Floralwhite ] wrote:
Ok, def going to go anon for this one.
To start off, what the lady said to you OP is exceedingly rude. Whatever I'm about to say below, I am not advocating rudeness. I also want to point out that IRL I've never told, hinted, or in any way insinuated that people go on BC.
So what IS my point?

That unlike the other examples of rudeness (telling an overweight woman about weight loss options, or married woman with no kids about segulas), the act of using BC or not is a controllable choice. And I believe that telling women that there's an option to use BC (while sounding patronizing) is actually doing a service to those women who think it's totally assur. It's not. Some rabbonim do hold that, but if push comes to shove (such as family not really coping well and the rav doesn't seem to understand- I mean, why should he? He's not a member of you household), then well, it may be time to find a rav who does understand. There are entire gemarahs that address BC. There are millions of rebbetzins throughout millenia who have used it. It's not assur. But so many women are told it is, I almost feel it is my "good deed for the day" to tell them otherwise.

I will never forget a conversation I had with a friend and neighbor who was completely overwhelmed with her back/to back pregnancies. She said, jokingly, if BC weren't totally assur I would definitely use it!
I relayed this conversation to my dh who said, "she may think it's assur but her DH who learns gemarah all day knows that it is definitely not!" And I was upset and frustrated that the person who bears the brunt of not using BC is being kept in the dark.

The short answer to you, OP, is that sadly, many women need to hear this because in their otherwise carefully controlled environment, no one is telling them. And sometimes, a comment can be a lifeline that will plant a seed of hope to otherwise desperate women.


You make a valid and important point.

However
1) despite many people saying they got heterim etc, there are also Rabbanim who won't give a heter. Or will only give one if a doctor says there is a medical need. And even the second Rav you ask may not allow. Btdt. It's not a pleasant situation.

2) bc is not foolproof. If someone is on bc, gets pregnant before they feel ready, and then get mussar, how do you think they feel?

So if you really feel that someone may not know that bc is an option, you can say something subtle. Like, if it's getting too much, you can always speak to Rav X. And stop there.

But to decide for them that it's too much? Or they can't afford it? Rude. Rude. Rude.
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amother




Mistyrose


Post  Mon, May 20 2019, 9:40 am
keym wrote:
Some of it is a generational thing.
My mother and mother in law both raised their children in a time (late 70s until 90s) where using bc or getting a heter was unheard of.
So when my mil or an aunt or someone says something like "maybe you should take a break for now" I assume they really think I don't know what's available.


It's interesting that it seems to have been unheard of, and yet there were those people who knew about BC heterim and did get them.

My mother had a large family (2 digits) and totally did not cope. I had a difficult childhood, some of us were emotionally and physically abused, and I was very, very parentified. And yet she totally believed BC was assur, but really because that's what she wanted to hear. My father tried to tell her, but she wouldn't hear him, wouldn't go speak to a Rav with him.

A close family friend of ours used BC after a number of children. Her husband got a psak from R' Yaakov Kaminetsky for this (and my mother knew about this, and refused to do same). This man asked R' Yaakov why there is so much dysfunction and people are having large families, not coping, and still not using BC. He answered "veil zei fregen nisht" (because they don't ask). I heard this story myself, from this woman. First-hand.

I think it's a good thing that info about BC heterim is more widespread today, and perhaps there are more healthy families as a result, or at least, maybe somewhere a little girl is being spared from being overwhelmed from running the household at an age that is far too young, because her mother is too depressed to do her job....

I will make sure my children know that BC heterim exist before they get married.
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groovy1224




 
 
 


Post  Mon, May 20 2019, 9:42 am
Israeli_C wrote:
Since when has it become so socially acceptable to tell people that they've had enough kids or to go on BC? I brought my twins to the doctor recently and the secretary (who's actually a really lovely women and I've never had issues with her) said to me "what a lovely family! but that's enough. You don't have a job. Need to feed all those kids!" She's not aware that my husband not only works (shocker) but earns enough for a very comfortable lifestyle. It's far from being my first 'encounter' with these kinds of comments, and it shocks me each and every time. I see it being thrown around on threads on this board all the time and all I can think is "... seriously? And you are...??"

What happened us?! Is this something new or am I late in the game?!


I think what was said to you was really rude and not acceptable.

But for my part, I've really only seen it said on here in response to a woman who's in a dysfunctional situation with no end in sight. And then mentions that oh by the way she has 7 or 8 little ones.
I think it just triggers something in many that have limited their family size to avoid poverty, or to keep their marriage afloat, or because they live in a 2 bedroom apartment and just can't fit a baker's dozen in there. So to see someone posting from desperation that she has no money, or a severely damaged relationship with her husband, or is stressed to the brink of insanity- can be quite frustrating. Because it didn't have to be this way. And she's not the only person suffering- her kids are too.

Maybe I've missed it, but I really don't think I've ever seen someone recommend BC to someone with a large family but is coping reasonably well.
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ectomorph




 
 
 


Post  Mon, May 20 2019, 9:46 am
I don't have a very large family yet, but would love to.

Every day is different. I could totally come in here and post about my fight with my husband and challenges my kids are giving me and you'd all be " go on bc".

You're not seeing my adorable happy kinderlach, who will be huge talmidei chachamim and tzidkoniyos in the future, are well cared for, and live in a happy home with parents who love each other.
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amother




Khaki


Post  Mon, May 20 2019, 9:47 am
On the flip side, my youngest is 3 and I've gotten, "it's time for another!"
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ectomorph




 
 
 


Post  Mon, May 20 2019, 9:47 am
See my dumping thread, where I was told to go on bc by at least one person, despite my positive tone in the thread...
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SuperWify




 
 
 


Post  Mon, May 20 2019, 9:50 am
amother [ Khaki ] wrote:
On the flip side, my youngest is 3 and I've gotten, "it's time for another!"


I get that all.the.time.

Just this shabbos my kid pointed to a doll and said baby. A sweet polite girl tells me, “when your child says that it means it’s time for the next one.”

Ok thanks honey.

Why is anyone’s family planning anyone else’s business is beyond me Scratching Head
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