NY is ending religious exceptions!

Ravenclaw

Thu, Jun 13 2019, 11:44 pm

amother [ Brown ] wrote:

No, you need to wake up here. As ohmygosh spelled out earlier - it's only the school religious exemption that's being eliminated. You still retain every right to keep your personal religious exemption and not vaccinate your children. The only thing being lost here is the ability to send your kids to a school with other children. There's no religious law in any religion stating that your kids must be educated in a room full with other children. You can homeschool, or educate them in a virtual setting.

If this is your religion, then show some mesiras nefesh. You want your religion on your part, but the mesiras nefesh on everyone else's part.

It's your choice to make, and your consequences to bear.

Best post. Read this, it's all you need.

Ravenclaw

Thu, Jun 13 2019, 11:48 pm

Sebastian wrote:

I think yeshivas that don't teach basic secular studies should be shut down.

If they only ban shtriemels and not all furs that would be struck down by the court. There's always synthetic.

I agree chickens shouldn't be used for kapporas unless treated respectfully, which they aren't.

The difference between your examples and vaccines are:
1. your wearing a shtreimel/using a chicken for kapporas/getting a poor education etc. doesn't harm me. Not vaccinating can harm me.

2. There is no mekor for not vaccinating in the Torah. There is no mesorah for not vaccinating. Ppl. were using the religious exception as a personal belief exception so it was eliminated.

You beat me to it.

amother

Red

Fri, Jun 14 2019, 12:01 am

People love restricting others' freedoms, so long as it's others and not them. This is the new era in America, and why our family left some years ago: there is so much fear, angered and even hatred. People cannot live together peacefully with others with whom they disagree. Not to mention the economy is in freefall (despite Trump continually tweeting about how great the economy is...). People, the writing is on the wall: America is not going down a good derech here. First it will be their right to vaccinate, then eventually it will be your right to educate your children as you please, do a brit milah or cater to a same-gender marriage. If the government can tell you what to put into your body to go to a private school, then they can certainly tell you what to do with your body. The separation between private and public is becoming increasingly lost.

Most Americans whether rich or poor are comfortable and it's hard to pick up and go. So, they tell themselves the increasing government encroachment into their personal lives doesn't affect them or it's a good thing -they agree with the premise of said law. Whether you are affected or agree is not the point. Rather, it's that America is changing to a place where the government is becoming increasingly authoritarian, and you are increasingly losing the right to make decisions for yourself. Where that ends, only Hashem knows. But we've seen this before, and you have to be very naive to believe this will all end well, especially for Orthodox Jews.

nchr

Fri, Jun 14 2019, 3:51 am

amother [ Crimson ] wrote:

Very sad for those children who don't fit the narrow definition for the medical exemption or can't get a doctor who is willing even when it does fit....happens to the best of us when you know something and your doctor disagrees, even if he has an MD, and you have to look for another one or suffer until science catches up or you figure it yourself online or in yehupetz.

I happen to believe parents have a right to choose, which you still do, you just can't attend public school, daycare, etc.

Anyways, your reason is not a religious reason. It's sad for the people who actually are part of a religion that oppose vaccination such as Christian Scientists (not Scientology) however I assume they send to their own schools anyways so they'll be able to bypass the requirement. NY is not the first state to do this because people used religious exemptions as personal belief exemptions which they are not. NY also has a huge outbreak ATM tied to a religious community whose religion by and far supports vaccinations.

amother

Babypink

Fri, Jun 14 2019, 3:59 am

yerushamama wrote:

I do vaccinate, and believe very strongly that it is the best way to eliminate a disease, and an absolute must during an outbreak. Despite that, I do understand some of the concerns of those who don't vaccinate.

The problem is, that calling it a religious exemption is false. True, there are sects, like christian scientists, who are against many medical interventions on religious grounds, but I have never heard of anything comparable in Judiasm! Those who object do so for personal or percieved medical reasons - not religious reasons!
waiting

I would like to read just one single intelligent argument based on science against vaxing.

southernbubby

Fri, Jun 14 2019, 4:55 am

amother [ Lilac ] wrote:

Majority of yeshivas (and girls schools) allow kids to graduate with a legitimate high school diploma, the ones that don't should be shut down since it is harming kids.
Majority of Jews do not wear Shtreimals, that is just a very small demographic of Jews that wear them and it is harming the animals so democrats are against that.
Majority of Jews do not do Kapporas with chicken but use money instead so no need to harm the chickens just to do kapporas which democrats are against as well.
And so on so forth.
And if majority of Jews got the measles shot then they should be immune from it even if a small minority didnt get it. If that is not the case and people who got shots are still getting measles then something is very wrong with the shot so why bother giving it if it doesn't work?

In Williamsburg, the majority wear shtreimals, go to yeshivas with poor secular subjects and use chickens for kapporis and would fight for the right to continue and would probably be assisted by Jews who don't do any of the above but who believe in religious rights.

At the same time, the city has the right to cut funding to schools that don't maintain certain criteria and the government has the right to limit benefits to people who choose a life of entitlement. The government also has the right to limit where kapporis is done or how the unused parts of chickens or dead chickens are disposed of due to sanitation considerations. The government exists to protect the public.

Because measles is considered a VPD, unlike the flu, the public has the right to be protected against it.

southernbubby

Fri, Jun 14 2019, 5:21 am

ally wrote:

It is so obvious that the religious exemption is really just being used as a personal exemption in these communities. Ultra orthodoxy at it’s essence does not allow for personal interpretations of religion. Especially by women.

If you have been following the numerous vaccine threads, they use the religious argument that one person is not obligated to take even a slight risk to benefit another. They look at it like compelling someone to donate a kidney or some bone marrow. The Torah doesn't force these life-saving but slightly risky acts.

ally

Fri, Jun 14 2019, 5:31 am

southernbubby wrote:

I’ve also seen it included in “vechai bahem”. But extrapolating to include vaccination is essentially paskening which is just not done on an individual level. Your examples are established piskei Halacha.

happyness

Fri, Jun 14 2019, 6:10 am

This is a repost, but I felt it applicable...

I just spoke to two anti vaxxers. ONe of them is really a nice person. When she responded with the following, I walked away and came to the realization that this fight is literally turning people into meshuguyim.

Me: I have a heart transplant friend that is terrified...
Anti-vaxxer: Well, that is her lot in life, she needs to stay home!!!

Me: what about the woman that went into labor at 25 weeks cuz she had the measles?
Anti-vaxxer: Lots of woman go into premature labor!

Me: what about the down syndrome baby that died?
Anti-vaxxer: He was sick anyway!!! and the parents went to the hospital too late!!!

Anti-vaxxer: I have a right to protect my child
Me: certainly, and so do we. So please keep your kids out of school and at home
Anti-vaxxer: YOU keep your kids home Can't Believe It

amother

Ruby

Fri, Jun 14 2019, 6:14 am

All of this is beyond the point! Whether you are pro or anti vax. Our democracy was founded on freedoms and rights. It should be our choice to choose which medical interventions to undertake and which materials to inject in our body. That the government can force me to do something to my own body against my will is absolutely beyond horrifying in the USA.

And yes, it goes against my religious beliefs as well. G-d created my body whole and healthy. My body is holy. It's not onto me to improve it in any way. My body is capable of fighting off disease. Taking risky (albeit small risk) pro-active measures cannot be obligatory.

The government is trampling on our rights. One by one. This is becoming a really dangerous place to live.

happyness

Fri, Jun 14 2019, 6:17 am

amother [ Ruby ] wrote:

Do you eat foods with food coloring, msg, and non-organic ingredients?
Do you ever walk behind a bus, in a train station?
Do you use technology, cell phones?

I don't believe you will say no.

So you inject materials into your that can be harmful.

Nuff Said.

GreenEyes26

Fri, Jun 14 2019, 6:17 am

amother [ Ruby ] wrote:

No one is taking away your right to be an anti-vaxxer. You just can’t send your kids to school anymore. No rights are being infringed on.

So enjoy homeschooling!

southernbubby

Fri, Jun 14 2019, 6:19 am

amother [ Ruby ] wrote:

Again, you can home school or take your kids to a measles party so you still have choices and our schools remain safe for all students, teachers, and visitors.

amother

Brown

Fri, Jun 14 2019, 6:28 am

amother [ Ruby ] wrote:

I'll repeat what the others have just said in another attempt to try to get the point across to you.

The government is not taking away your right to refuse any injections.

The government is not forcing you to do anything to your body against your will.

The government is not trampling on your rights any more so than it has done last month.

The one and only thing the government is telling you now is that you will no longer be able to trample on the rights of the others in society by sending your kids to school with their kids.

In other words, the government is sticking up for the rights of majority. Isn't that their true purpose?

amother

Lilac

Fri, Jun 14 2019, 6:31 am

bluebaker wrote:

Concessions will be made, because nobody wants to leave the golden medina and chas ve-shalom have to (gulp, never!) make Aliyah to (no, never - chas ve-shalom!) Eretz Yisrael.

Bare your arms!

Democrats want to take that away from you as well!

amother [ Red ] wrote:

But but its the democrats who are taking all these rights away and are even fighting Trump for everything that he does that is good for this country and citizens. But its ok according the the liberals on imamother since it doesn't affect them. Yet. But this is just the way desensitization starts. First they tell you that you are privileged because your skin color is white, then they remove the right to bare arms, then the right to decide what to do with your body, etc. On the other hand, democrats are also doing everything to ensure that illegal aliens are getting their needs met from free college to health insurance to drivers license while being allowed to come into the country unchecked and with who knows what kinds of diseases. This is all from Hitlers playbook, he too went after the "privileged Jews" who were citizens of his country while allowing foreigners to do whatever they want and look where that lead...
Jews have to wake up before its too late and their rights are completely taken away or keep voting them democrats (who are becoming more intolerant and anti-semitic by the day) into office and see where that leads you..