Does hashem want different things from different communities

amother

Amethyst

Mon, Jun 17 2019, 2:55 am

I read this excellent book written by an author that left Catholicism. She grew up with a background that is so similar to RW Judaism that it's frightening, and a lot of her hangups are from dealing with the fallout of that background, and of leaving it. You get the sense that she's still in mourning over it.

There was one paragraph that really struck me. In it, the protagonist wonders aloud why there were so many people, doing so many different things in service to their God. And that each group were utterly convinced that their way to worship was the only way. And to the protagonist/author, there's absolutely no clarity about which way is right. In fact, she sees so much truth in so many of their ways. (Her leaving her religion is about her personal fight with God).

Her final thought is that maybe that's what God really wants. He wants not to be feared or obeyed or maybe even worshipped, but that He wants just to be wondered about. Based on how little we understand of actual Hashem, that line really stayed with me.

chestnut

Mon, Jun 17 2019, 8:17 am

leah233 wrote:

The examples given aren't all comparable.

In Lakewood davening in jeans would be considered a sign of disrespect. In the 5 Towns it wouldn't.

Heading to ball game and buying a beer may be controversial but they don't affect major fundamentals of Judaism. Even most people who disapproves of such behavior would agree that someone who does so can still be a very good Jew.

And most people who head to the ball game would agree that a guy who spends his time learning or doing other mitzvos instead of heading to the ball game is spending his time in a better manner than them.

Disrespect of whom, according to whom?? Are they so sure Hashem feels disrespected by men davening in jeans?
Most people heading to the game understand that it's impossible to learn 24/7 and people are meant to enjoys innocent fun things in life

Last edited by chestnut on Mon, Jun 17 2019, 9:42 am; edited 1 time in total

chestnut

Mon, Jun 17 2019, 8:18 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

I dont think Hashem wants different things from different people. I think different rabbanim or different communities ei PEOPLE want different things from different communities.
I would never bring hashem into the equation at all.

Yes, but Hashem is brought by these rabbonim into the equation as it's claimed this is what He wants

essie14

Mon, Jun 17 2019, 8:46 am

chestnut wrote:

Yes, but Hashem is brought by these rabbonim into the equation as it's claimed this is what He wants

I do not believe Hashem wants men to wear black hats or do any of the other arbitrary things that some people do.
I believe there are different ways of following the Torah and that Hashem wants us to do the best we can.
If a rabbi feels that wearing a black hat is the best way HE can serve Hashem, and he suggests this to his followers, whatever, that's ok with me. But don't say that is what Hashem wants.

cheerios

Mon, Jun 17 2019, 9:13 am

amother [ Amethyst ] wrote:

maybe that's what God really wants. He wants not to be feared or obeyed or maybe even worshipped, but that He wants just to be wondered about.

Sorry I wouldn't take lessons from an ex-Catholic. In the torah it clearly says hashem wants to be feared. And obeyed. "Es hashem elokecha tira.... ubkolo tishma'un"

chestnut

Mon, Jun 17 2019, 9:43 am

essie14 wrote:

Tell that to the yeshivishe and chassidishe folks and their leadership

amother

Saddlebrown

Mon, Jun 17 2019, 12:10 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I saw this sentence on a different thread today, and it has me wondering. In some communities various things are not done (in the name of yidishkeit) and in other communities those same things are completely ok. Whether it's sheitels, the way way dress, driving, having a tv, and many more.

To give an example: If you live in 5towns then hashem doesn't mind if your dh davens shachris in his jeans and then heads to the ballgame where he buys a beer. If you live in Lakewood then hashem is bothered by this. Seems strange to me.

Hashem isn't bothered by a man davening in jeans. The ultra orthodox community is.
In order to keep people in line they make people think hashem is bothered.

ora_43

Mon, Jun 17 2019, 12:32 pm

Are you talking about the idea that different communities disagree on what Hashem wants?

Or about the concept of 'minhag hamakom' - that something can be OK in one place, but not another?

Metaphor the first
Let's say you and a sister are at your parents' house for Shabbat. You get there Friday afternoon and your father tells you both that your mother isn't feeling well, and asks if you both can help with the cooking for a couple hours while he cleans and she rests.

Your sister spends the time making a chicken stew. She makes sure to add the exact amounts of everything, and to dice dozens of vegetables, so that it is delicious and also healthy.

You spend the time throwing together a quick and easy soup, side dish, and dessert.

Your father wanted the same thing from both of you. You both did different things. And yet, you both did what he wanted.

Metaphor (?) the second
OK this isn't really a metaphor...
In India, it is considered normal to let your belly show, but it's very rare that a woman would show the shape of her lower leg.

In Bnei Brak, it's considered normal to wear skirts above the ankles with tights, but it would be very rare to see a woman walking around with her stomach showing.

You would have to act differently in the two different places in order to get the same result - "be dressed modestly."

Or in one of the examples you mentioned: the goal is "dress respectfully for shul," but the means - jeans vs slacks - are different. You're still living by the same overall principle, either way.

(this idea applies in all kinds of situations - eg "leave a generous tip," "be polite," "make people feel welcome"... lots of things depend on circumstances and culture)

amother

Ivory

Mon, Jun 17 2019, 1:36 pm

Hashem wants us to follow Halacha. Not minhagim. Not chumras.
I doubt Hashem cares about the color of a man's shirt while he davens.
Because WE place such an emphasis on the externals, we (our community) have contributed to the at-risk or OTD situation.
We have to teach our kids that a colored shirt doesn't make them irreligious, neither does a ballgame.
If we stop treating such examples as a crime in our Chasidish communities, then our kids won't need to join other communities just to wear a colored shirt or attend a ballgame.

amother

Emerald

Mon, Jun 17 2019, 4:43 pm

amother [ Amethyst ] wrote:

Please post the name of the book or author assuming she converted.

amother

Cerise

Mon, Jun 17 2019, 5:04 pm

chestnut wrote:

Tell that to the yeshivishe and chassidishe folks and their leadership

Let's not start a fire here.
Live and let live.
In my humble opinion all the different communities and the Torah path they follow should be respected; this does not mean that one has to do the same. But respect them, yes.
After all:" derech eretz kodmoh laTorah"

amother

Cerise

Mon, Jun 17 2019, 5:20 pm

amother [ Amethyst ] wrote:

Her final thought is that maybe that's what God really wants. He wants not to be feared or obeyed or maybe even worshipped, but that He wants just to be wondered about.

WHAT?!?!

To me this is outright apikorsus, or missionary talk, or taking into consideration that the author is a convert: perhaps she has a lack of understanding in this issue. no offense meant.

I would run far away from books that have such content!!

Cookiegirl

Mon, Jun 17 2019, 5:46 pm

amother [ Violet ] wrote:

Hashem wants the same thing from all people. However, going about those things differ based on community.

If, by this you mean, that Hashem "wants" (already a problem, but I digress) everyone to live up to their potential, and complete their tafkid in life, then yes...He "wants" the same thing from all people.

However, each person is placed in the environment that will allow him/her the opportunity to do that. Hashem doesn't "want" a kohen to do the same thing as a mother or as an abuse survivor, or as an orphan, or as a BMG bachur or as a Yerushalmi, or as a Ba'al Teshuva etc. Community constructs are humanity's way of making society work...

amother

Blue

Mon, Jun 17 2019, 9:11 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Every person has a tikkun specific to him. Every community has a tikkun specific to them.
You end up moving or being part of a community cause it is meant for you.
Any person familiar with the depth of tanya or zohar can explain it to you more intricately.
"Nistaros hshm elokeinu" none of us know why we are here for and up until we die we deal with conflicting feelings. This is the way hashm wanted it.
If you want to be more at peace with yourself, listen to Rabbi Gordon's Tanya or Chaim Miller's book on Tanya and you'll probably come to appreciate your particular communities mesorah and way of doing things.