Does hashem want different things from different communities

amother

Taupe

Mon, Jun 17 2019, 6:34 pm

amother [ Cerise ] wrote:

WHAT?!?!

To me this is outright apikorsus, or missionary talk, or taking into consideration that the author is a convert: perhaps she has a lack of understanding in this issue. no offense meant.

I would run far away from books that have such content!!

the author isn't Jewish.

amother

Amethyst

Mon, Jun 17 2019, 8:29 pm

amother [ Cerise ] wrote:

If everyone can just calm down and not get so hysterical over points of view that's different than your own.

There are so many stories in gemara and beyond about people who earn Olam Haba in an instant. They didn't obey Hashem all their lives. I don't know if everything has to follow a specific formula.

Also, when we really think outside of our little enclaves, like our little online community we have here. There are so many truly good people - people I've met - that aren't Jewish or religious. You can read about people like Irena Sendler. Abraham Lincoln. What about a person who was born into a highly Christian family, who only knew that religion all their lives, but loves God as they know Him. Does God automatically condemn them to hell because they didn't bump into a religious Jew who started proselytizing them?

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

soap suds

Mon, Jun 17 2019, 10:05 pm

amother [ Ivory ] wrote:

Hashem wants us to follow Halacha. Not minhagim. Not chumras.
I doubt Hashem cares about the color of a man's shirt while he davens.
Because WE place such an emphasis on the externals, we (our community) have contributed to the at-risk or OTD situation.
We have to teach our kids that a colored shirt doesn't make them irreligious, neither does a ballgame.
If we stop treating such examples as a crime in our Chasidish communities, then our kids won't need to join other communities just to wear a colored shirt or attend a ballgame.

Do you really believe Hashem would rather we disregard minhagim and that He's not happy when someone undertakes chumras? Of course they're not equal and are different levels, but I strongly believe that Hashem does want us to and will reward us for keeping minhagim and chumras.

amother

Blue

Mon, Jun 17 2019, 10:21 pm

amother [ Ivory ] wrote:

People who are constantly busy with other peoples minhagim and chumras are often self hating Jews.

mirror

Mon, Jun 17 2019, 10:24 pm

I truly believe that being Mekadesh Shem Shamayim requires fitting into social norms, unfortunately. If you are technically keeping Halacha but ignoring your community's Minhagim, then you are making your community scared of you. We are all human and humans are wary of people who are different. I wish that most of Klall Yisroel would judge each person by what they do and not the clothes they wear, but they are humans first and G-d fearing second (I hope they are G-d fearing). That's why my heart aches for the mentally ill and the people with Asperger's. They know they're different and they're treated like lepers.

Last edited by mirror on Mon, Jun 17 2019, 10:26 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Blue

Mon, Jun 17 2019, 10:25 pm

chestnut wrote:

Tell that to the yeshivishe and chassidishe folks and their leadership

When I hear such talk, I think of the German enlightened Jews who parroted the same speech. They talked this talk on the Ostjuden- their Eastern European brothers. Hitler put them all in the same camps and if their descendants survived, they ended up producing Gentile grandchildren.

amother

Blue

Mon, Jun 17 2019, 10:30 pm

mirror wrote:

I agree,
If you don't wear a white shirt when your peers are wearing white shirts, you show you dont indentify with them.

DrMom

Mon, Jun 17 2019, 10:42 pm

amother [ Blue ] wrote:

I agree,
If you don't wear a white shirt when your peers are wearing white shirts, you show you dont indentify with them.

Maybe you don't find white shirts practical because you have little kids.

Or maybe someone gave you a perfectly nice blue shirt as a present and you see no reason not to wear it.

Maybe your wife thinks you look handsome in a blue shirt that sets off your eyes.

Maybe you need to wear a blue shirt for work.

It's not always about you.

There is no reason you cannot be an observant, G-d-fearing Jew while wearing something other than a white shirt.

DrMom

Mon, Jun 17 2019, 10:47 pm

mirror wrote:

Sounds like you live in an extremely insular, homogeneous, xenophibic community.

Please don't generalize to all humans.

Most men in my community are not white-shirt-black-pants-black-hat-wearers, but I don't think such a person would frighten anybody I know.

And I don't understand your argument about Asberger's and mentally ill people. What are you trying to say? People who wear jeans should be treated as if they are mentally ill? People who are mentaly ill are treated as outcasts, and they can't help it, but people who wear jeans can help it, so it's their own fault if they are treated like outcasts?

amother

Denim

Mon, Jun 17 2019, 10:52 pm

If you want to wear a uniform that declares that you are part of a particular community and identify with its philosophy, great. What's not great is declaring that anyone who doesn't dress to affiliate with your particular community isn't frum.

There are plenty of truly religious, halachically scrupulous Jews who don't wear black and white because they don't identify with the whole charedi/yeshivish program.

Be very careful about conflating halacha and social norms.

southernbubby

Tue, Jun 18 2019, 4:44 am

I learned somewhere that minhagim are very precious to Hashem. On my street there are representatives of several Chassidishe kehillas and on the adjoining block there are 3 shuls; one of which has a beautiful and impressive building. To me, this place is like Gan Eden, even with potholes, honking can drivers, and excess garbage because of so many beautiful and inspiring ways that Yidden keep Torah. I feel that Hashem is very happy here too, although I am just as certain that the Litvish shul a block away is among the variety that Hashem loves.
Look at all of the fruits, vegetables, flowers, animals, etc, that Hashem created which means that He likes variety and wants to bestow I on mankind. He also wants us to use what he has put on earth to serve Him and neutral things, such as sports, can, in some cases fit that category.

amother

Ivory

Tue, Jun 18 2019, 5:07 am

amother [ Blue ] wrote:

People who are constantly busy with other peoples minhagim and chumras are often self hating Jews.

You missed my point. I say this as a mother who embraced her son WITH his colored shirts, even though we are chassidish and our community looks down upon that, but colored shirts is not a matter of halacha. I am not sure I could CV embrace a son who is mechalel shabbos. So yes, we should separate halacha and minhagim.
I stand by my original statement. Hashem wants us to keep Halacha. All else is extra. It may be beautiful to add minhagim and chumras. But we should not reject those that don't. We should not look down upon someone davening in a colored shirt. He is following halacha by davening. Period.

PinkFridge

Tue, Jun 18 2019, 5:26 am

Minhagim are beautiful. There are all sorts of wonderful thoughts about minhag. They can come from beautiful sources, like what is the hiddur to doing mitzvah, or in some cases, how do we actually interpret the halacha. For example, I love my succah, with its decorations on the wall and from the schach. I could walk into my Lubavitch neighbor's succah and see a different sort of beauty.

Sounds like more than ever we need a manhig to help us navigate minhag. And you know what an anagram for minhag is: Gehenom.

shabbatiscoming

Tue, Jun 18 2019, 11:41 pm

chestnut wrote:

Yes, but Hashem is brought by these rabbonim into the equation as it's claimed this is what He wants

No. I dont think thats how it works. And we dont know that what the rabbanim say is "from god".

shabbatiscoming

Tue, Jun 18 2019, 11:47 pm

amother [ Saddlebrown ] wrote:

Hashem isn't bothered by a man davening in jeans. The ultra orthodox community is.
In order to keep people in line they make people think hashem is bothered.

This 100 times over. Exactly this.

Also, some people in some communities hold what rabbanim say as if its directly from god. That is definitely NOT how it really is either.

shabbatiscoming

Tue, Jun 18 2019, 11:51 pm

mirror wrote:

Excuse me? Im happy Im not part of your community, but where I live, nobody with a mental illness is treated like a leper. What a terrible thing to do to someone who has an illness. And people with aspergers are treated that way too? Shame shame on your community. Thats terrible.
And I really believe that judging people based on the clothing they wear happens in some places but not everywhere, that is for sure.

amother

White

Wed, Jun 19 2019, 12:47 am

We are taught that davening can be compared to speaking to a king. Who would do that in clothing that is not considered "respectable"? I agree that what is considered respectful and respectable is different in different situations, but disregarding the norms of YOUR community is generally disrespectful. If you find those norms not to your liking, maybe look into finding a community more suited to you.

amother

Denim

Wed, Jun 19 2019, 3:59 am

amother [ White ] wrote:

That's fine. But you don't get to write off a whole community as not being frum because they don't dress according to your completely arbitrary, and very recent, dress code.

amother

Ivory

Wed, Jun 19 2019, 5:01 am

amother [ White ] wrote:

I know a man who ran into shul for mincha dressed in his blue work uniform and was asked to leave. Suffice it to say, although he belonged to that chasidus, he never stepped foot in there again.

If someone wears shorts to work and finds himself near a chasidish shul mincha-time, is it better not to daven mincha, daven b'yechidis, or daven with minyan in shorts??? We're not talking about disrespecting minhagim. We're talking about what Hashem wants. A mincha in shorts vs. No mincha at all.

DrMom

Wed, Jun 19 2019, 5:12 am

amother [ White ] wrote:

Do you think these Jews are being disrespectful because they are not wearing suits?