Feminism | Imamother

amother

Red

Mon, Jun 17 2019, 8:10 pm

trixx wrote:

Everyone always quotes that one aspect in critique of the book. I don't agree with it either. You don't have to follow it like the Bible. She would have been better off leaving out that entire chapter.

People quote it because once you undermine your thesis with a suggestion that is devoid of common sense, you lose your audience. 🤷🏻‍♀️

Ravenclaw

Mon, Jun 17 2019, 10:21 pm

First of all, I love you Red.

Now about feminism...

I find that whenever I call myself a feministI must include an operational definition of it because everyone defines it differently. There are so many different views on feminism--even opposing ones--that it can get confusing. For example people both oppose and support the p-rn industry in the name of feminism.
To me feminism isn't "not needing help". It's being treating like an equal human being, given equal opportunities and being treated with respect (not just coddled with love, yet regarded as a sweet little pet). It is having my opinions and voice heard with as much attention as a man's would be, not disregarded before I begin because of my gender. It is when jobs are divvied out according to who will do them best, not according to traditional stereotypes. It is being allowed to like what I want and not to be stuck into a box of having to like certain styles, jobs or pastimes due to my gender.

amother

Azure

Mon, Jun 17 2019, 10:39 pm

I am not a politician so feminism is a little different for me. I would like my community to have the same standards for men as for women. I would like that when my husband comes home from Shul with a story, it shouldn't always be slanted that the man is a tzaddik and the wife is terrible. I would like that when r"l there is a tragedy, I should not get robo calls about how I need to improve my tznius. I would like that my daughters in school should be taught that their Torah learning has value and that they are not required to shmatteh themselves for their husbands. And I would like for my sons in yeshiva to be taught to respect their wives and mothers as individuals with brains that are often better than theirs and not to look down on us as emotional irrational beings that they need to put up with.

amother

Burlywood

Tue, Jun 18 2019, 12:27 am

amother [ Azure ] wrote:

I'm not sure what world you live in but literally none of the examples you gave are part of mine. Maybe ten or twenty years ago they were but not now. Women are emotional irrational beings without brains?? Really! Who the heck teaches that these days? And don't tell me you've never heard a story about a tzaddeikes, and yes, sometimes with a no-goodnik of a husband. You either need to change communities, schools, shuls or all three.

RW yeshivish here

amother

Red

Tue, Jun 18 2019, 5:13 am

Ruchel wrote:

I believe men and women are equal but different, just as individuals are equal (barring extremes) but different. I will ask help from anyone if I need it and will choose a man if it's something physical.

But what if the nearest man is weak with a heart condition and the nearest female is a champion body builder when you need physical help? 🤔 Help doesn’t and shouldn’t need to be gender specific.

Simple1

Tue, Jun 18 2019, 6:37 am

amother [ Burlywood ] wrote:

I was gonna like your post, but -no-10 to 20 years ago this was not taught either. I went to school more years ago than that and was not taught any of that. Maybe 100 years ago people thought like that. Very Happy

amother

Green

Tue, Jun 18 2019, 6:41 am

It means men and women are equal. Goes both ways though. You can't say you want equal pay but men should always pay for dinner. Or men should help with the house and kids but wife doesn't want to work.
That's my moms definition, she just picks out what's easy for her. I'm anti that type of feminism cos it's plain stupid

ectomorph

Tue, Jun 18 2019, 6:43 am

amother [ Red ] wrote:

Nobody is disagreeing that you shouldn’t accept help from your DH. However that particular book you mention is decidedly unfeminist which is why it irks people sometimes. The person in the household who is strongest at financial bookkeeping is the best person to look after house finances regardless of gender. The LD book disregards this common sense. It makes no sense to let the man control the finances if he is an unemployed gambler while his wife makes six figures as an accountant to take an extreme example.

Laura Doyle says not to use her books on a gambler. So that example isn't accurate.

amother

Red

Tue, Jun 18 2019, 7:03 am

ectomorph wrote:

Laura Doyle says not to use her books on a gambler. So that example isn't accurate.

Laura Doyle says touch your toes... If Laura Doyle says jump off a cliff...

Ok, an edit: an unemployed man with poor mathematical skills married to the same woman, earning six figures as an accountant. Can't Believe It

Did you really need to be so literal? I think my point was made regardless.

ectomorph

Tue, Jun 18 2019, 7:07 am

amother [ Red ] wrote:

Laura Doyle says touch your toes... If Laura Doyle said jump off a cliff...

Ok, an edit: an unemployed man with poor mathematical skills married to the same woman, earning six figures as an accountant. Can't Believe It

Did you really need to be so literal? I think my point was made regardless.

It's quite a difference between a gambler and someone with poor mathematical skills, which can be improved.

amother

Red

Tue, Jun 18 2019, 7:10 am

ectomorph wrote:

It's quite a difference between a gambler and someone with poor mathematical skills, which can be improved.

But if one person has elite accounting skills and the other person loathes math and doesn’t want to be financially in charge, why force them because of their gender?! It could have catastrophic consequences. I can’t believe someone’s love for this book trumps common sense! Banging head

ora_43

Tue, Jun 18 2019, 7:30 am

amother [ Red ] wrote:

You know that creating a household budget takes only elementary school level math, right? This is not a situation where you need a professional.

There are arguments to be made against the Surrendered Wife approach, but - he might not be qualified?? What, to add 50 to 50 and get 100? OK, so he can use a calculator. He might not like math? Creating budget isn't a "doing math" experience, it's a "deciding how to distribute resources" experience.

amother

Smokey

Tue, Jun 18 2019, 7:31 am

Being a feminist doesn't work in the frum world because the gender roles are so rigid. I undermined my marriage with my late husband by not accepting traditional roles which I didn't do consciously.

I didn't go to the kitchen to help with the other women. Both LDH and I were strong earners. I didn't relate to the women in his family. I didn't have as much in common with a Walmart cashier(f) as I did with a banker(m). I joined the men while the women were prepping in the kitchen. I spoke to the men primarily about politics and the economy which caused the women's eyes to glaze over.

My second marriage works out so much better with the traditional roles.

amother

Red

Tue, Jun 18 2019, 7:46 am

ora_43 wrote:

For some people “only elementary school level math” is a lot for them. Besides, some people enjoy budgeting more than others. It simply makes sense that someone who enjoys this and presumably is good at it as they do it for a living (eg an accountant) do the finances.

Not all men enjoy “deciding how to distribute resources” just like not all women enjoy or are good at cooking.

IMHO it is not wise to jeopardize household expenses by putting someone less capable in charge but of course, people can decide what they do in their own houses. 🤷🏻‍♀️

None of these arguments, whichever side you are on, have anything to do with OP’s original discussion on feminism btw.

ora_43

Tue, Jun 18 2019, 7:47 am

delicious wrote:

If I were a feminist, would one of my beliefs be that women are equal to men, as in I don't need a man's help, I can do it on my own just the same? I have equal strengths and can do anything he can do?

There are different types of feminism.

Some common feminist responses:

- you should look at people as individuals, not according to gender. So if there's something you can't do, "I need a man's help" is the wrong response (unless the thing you can't do is get yourself pregnant, I guess); "I need someone's help" is the right response. Probably there are women who could help you, and men who couldn't.

- women and men do not have equal strengths. It's OK to recognize that in general men are better at certain things, as long as you recognize that women's strengths are at least as important as men's strengths.

- women are equal to men. You only think differently because that's what society has conditioned you to think.

- you don't need a man's help, you need to overthrow the capitalist patriarchy.

amother

Red

Tue, Jun 18 2019, 7:53 am

amother [ Smokey ] wrote:

Being in a “traditional” role doesn’t stop a frum woman from being a feminist! You can be a woman who bakes and loves being in the kitchen wearing frilly pink aprons and still believe that all men and women should be paid equally! A feminist is not a person who necessarily rejects traditional gender roles. I wish people would stop perpetuating this false definition. A person who is comfortable with her husband baking (with or without a pink frilly apron) isn’t destroying her frum marriage! Many men are better chefs, and some women like hammering nails in walls. These people can still be frum.

Smokey, I hope you have male relatives or female friends you can still chat to about politics and the economy. Being in a traditional role doesn’t mean you should lose sight of your passions.