Feminism | Imamother

ora_43

Tue, Jun 18 2019, 7:53 am

amother [ Red ] wrote:

For some people “only elementary school level math” is a lot for them. Besides, some people enjoy budgeting more than others.

Sure. But you were talking as if huge swaths of people are incapable of doing it. It'd be like saying that women shouldn't necessarily do the cooking, because some women aren't professional chefs, and letting them loose in the kitchen could have catastrophic consequences.

Adults can handle the mild discomfort of doing a chore they don't particularly enjoy. (afaik, very few people male or female enjoy budgeting).

amother

Bisque

Tue, Jun 18 2019, 7:54 am

ora_43 wrote:

You know that creating a household budget takes only elementary school level math, right? This is not a situation where you need a professional.

There are arguments to be made against the Surrendered Wife approach, but - he might not be qualified?? What, to add 50 to 50 and get 100? OK, so he can use a calculator. He might not like math? Creating budget isn't a "doing math" experience, it's a "deciding how to distribute resources" experience.

Ironically, this is me. I am an accountant married to a man with poor math skills. Oh, he has a Regents diploma and managed to pass all his Regents, and he's as capable as the next person of even getting a 100 on a math test if he studied - but he hates math, finances, and just about anything related to those two subjects. Like my friend just said to me - your husband doesn't have a practical bone in his body.

When we first got married, I pushed him to do the family finances even though he was actually resistant to it, because in my mind the husband takes care of the finances. I learned the hard way that you can't push someone to do something they don't want to do, hate, have zero interest in doing...

I wish I would have realized this right from the beginning, and we both would have been happier. Some women are better at finances, some women are better at fixing machines, some men are chefs, some men like to sew.

In any case I think her advice is wrong across the board. I think it is important both spouses are aware of the state of the family finances, even if only one spouse is actively in charge... One of my friends was the family breadwinner and took care of all the finances. She just got sick and her husband was totally lost... didn't even know what a bank is. So it goes both ways.

ora_43

Tue, Jun 18 2019, 7:57 am

FTR I think both partners should be involved in making a budget, because it's important for both to understand their financial situation, and budget tend to work better with buy-in from all parties.

What I disagree with is the playing into negative stereotypes about budgeting in the name of feminism. Let's not scare people off of budgeting for no reason. It's not that hard, and it definitely doesn't require a high level of math skills. Nearly all people have the ability to be good at it with a little effort.

ora_43

Tue, Jun 18 2019, 7:58 am

amother [ Bisque ] wrote:

In any case I think her advice is wrong across the board. I think it is important both spouses are aware of the state of the family finances, even if only one spouse is actively in charge... One of my friends was the family breadwinner and took care of all the finances. She just got sick and her husband was totally lost... didn't even know what a bank is. So it goes both ways.

And this is a good argument against what she said. I wasn't agreeing with the book, I was disagreeing with amother-red.

amother

Red

Tue, Jun 18 2019, 8:04 am

ora_43 wrote:

Nearly all people have the ability to be good at cooking too with a little effort. However, if you have a household where the man is a chef and the woman burns spaghetti, then it makes sense for the man to be in charge of the kitchen.

In an employment situation, I want the person with the accountancy degree doing the budgeting, not the person with elementary school math. Why would anyone want less in their household where their home and DC’s education are potentially on the line?

These arguments aren’t about feminism but about helping people play to their strengths. Just like we want to teach our children to their own way, as adults we should when possible, do what we are best at. I don’t see the point of someone struggling in a given area if they have a spouse more competent in that way.

amother

Red

Tue, Jun 18 2019, 8:15 am

ora_43 wrote:

Just because we can handle the discomfort of the chores, it doesn’t mean we should be resigned to doing them just to fulfil notions of traditional gender roles. This is especially true if we have a spouse who is better at [insert chore of choice] than ourselves.

happyness

Tue, Jun 18 2019, 8:54 am

Okay, I wasn't sure what feminism is, and I am still not, as there seems to be a varying of "THIS is what feminism is", quite an amount of interesting yet different views. I wanted to share a story and feel free to interpret.

I went to Manhattan yesterday. About a block away from my destination there was a parking spot, a tight one, but I hoped I could squeeze in.

So I'm starting my park, and it's directly in front of a coffee shop, with about 20 people waiting outside to get in. Of course, they're all looking and begin to talk about the parking. They watched to see if I would be able to get in.

One guy, a black, comes closer to my car, and I began to get nervous. I mean, I would probably cross the street if it were him and myself on a quiet street.

He tells me "I'm gonna help you park. I'm a truck driver and if anyone can do it's gonna be me"

(Here I wonder what the feminist attitude is?)

In any case, I followed his instructions, relied on him to tell me when to turn the wheel this way and that way, with my entire audience watching.

I was blushing, but it was pretty funny.

In either case, it was too of a tight spot and after a few minutes he said "na, you're not going to make it'. He seemed a bit embarrassed that he had to admit that.

I was disappointed, didn't hide it and sat there for a second to get my strength to continue circling.

(Here I also wonder if as a feminist, I would be more macho and say-It's okay, I'll be fine...)

Didn't take more than a second for him to say "hey, I got a spot a coupla cars ahead, it's a bigger spot, I'll switch with you!"

So that's what happened, we switched.

I come back to pay the muni meter, which is right near my old-his new spot, and I see that he could not get his car into the spot!!

Of course I thank him. He makes this big announcement that 'it's okay I didn't fit, cuz I'm only gonna be here a coupla minutes, and she's gonna be here for longer"

I found it amazing, that a macho guy, who announced that he was a truck driver and could help me get in, would give up his spot, and even appear foolish to the crowd as he couldn't even get HIS car into the spot, all for a woman who couldn't park and relied on him. If a woman is a woman, even the toughest man can have an urge to be a man.

singleagain

Tue, Jun 18 2019, 9:08 am

delicious wrote:

I wouldn't think this was a feminist issue. It's he said something about you being a woman as the reason the car would not fit.

FranticFrummie

Tue, Jun 18 2019, 9:10 am

Delicious, I don't see this as a feminist issue, I see this as him being a decent human being. A female truck driver could have been just as nice to you.

I remember once I was at an art gallery opening in Soho. It ran late into the night, and by the time I got out my car was gone! I started to panic, and a couple of guys said "Hey, was that your car?" I said yes, and they said "It's alternate side of the street parking. We picked up your car and carried it over to a legal spot."

Surprised

THEY CARRIED MY CAR!

I mean, who does that? In New York? It was crazy, but they didn't want to see me get towed. They didn't have to lift a finger, never mind a whole car. I couldn't thank them enough.

I don't think that makes me a bad Feminist.

happyness

Tue, Jun 18 2019, 9:19 am

FranticFrummie wrote:

WOW!

amother

Rose

Tue, Jun 18 2019, 9:21 am

yo'ma wrote:

From what I understand and heard, there are 3 waves of feminism.

1- equal rights which includes pay, voting, etc..

2- the s*xual revolution, where there's no difference, but the women started acting more like men

3- I'll call it toxic masculinity where men should act more like women or there's no difference between men and women.

To me, that's the basic gist of it. Almost everyone can agree that they are a first wave feminist.

Toxic masculinity has nothing to do with acting "more like women". It sounds like you don't at all understand the concept.

amother

Maroon

Tue, Jun 18 2019, 9:36 am

amother [ Olive ] wrote:

Feminism is what sustains the kollel system. The idea of married women working outside the home as a normal way of life is directly attributable to the work of second wave feminists.

Yes and no.
Yes, It sustains the kollel system, because without feminism women wouldn't be out working and earning viable wages.
No, because the whole kollel system isnt a very feminist value - the men there are doing the superior work (learning), the women are forever stuck in the supporting role , and the women are way overworked.

amother

Pearl

Tue, Jun 18 2019, 9:46 am

amother [ Maroon ] wrote:

You phrased it too nicely. Imo, our men have hijacked feminism and manipulated it to be self-serving, all the while pushing our mesorah aside.

Ruchel

Tue, Jun 18 2019, 9:53 am

"I didn't go to the kitchen to help with the other women. Both LDH and I were strong earners. I didn't relate to the women in his family. I didn't have as much in common with a Walmart cashier(f) as I did with a banker(m). I joined the men while the women were prepping in the kitchen. I spoke to the men primarily about politics and the economy which caused the women's eyes to glaze over. "

I have zero interest in going to the kitch and that type of things. I certainly will have more to discuss with an educated man than an uneducated woman (yes, maybe the cashier has a phd). I have great female friends but as a whole don't enjoy discussing what many (not all!) women do. I also don't like many male topics. My husband loves that he can mostly talk to me.