Why do you want women in a Magazine

GreenEyes26

Thu, Jun 20 2019, 10:12 pm

I know I shouldn’t even bother getting involved with threads like this; no one is listening to each other (not that I, personally, feel like the anti-women’s-pictures side has any validity). But I just wanted to say that this issue makes me blind with rage. It’s a big thing for me, so much so that I have turned down job opportunities to work with some of these magazines because I feel so strongly that what they are doing is wrong.

But this is just one of the symptoms of the gradual slip into extremism of the charedi world. It’s not the cause. So I can yell and complain and protest all I want, but until the entire system is unpacked, layer by layer, chumra by chumra, nothing will change.

The only thing I can do (and I remind my husband when he starts getting worked up) is change myself and how I raise MY kids. So, slowly, over the decade+ we’ve been married, we’ve changed. We’ve realized what works for us in our avodat Hashem and built a life that we feel is genuine.

We have choices. All of us. Some things about Yeshivish culture were things I couldn’t just say “live and let live” about anymore. So I removed myself and my family, and I’m all the better for it.

This isn’t going to get any better. It’s just going to get worse, if the last 20 years are any indication. Make your choices about what is good and right, and don’t partake of it any longer. Don’t bring it into your home. Don’t send your kids to schools with values you don’t agree with. Be real and be true to yourself.

And then you won’t have to explain to your sons or daughters why there’s no sisters or mothers or bubby’s in their books, newspapers and magazines.

dancingqueen

Thu, Jun 20 2019, 10:29 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

Here's a link to the study I was referencing:

https://www.who.int/reproducti.....5/en/

I heard about both of the things you mentioned. Which is not related to rates of violence against women.

ETA: It doesn't seem to relate to lower rates either, at least as far as I can tell. It just has no effect. Which is not minimizing that Muslim countries are very restrictive of women in general, and I personally would not want to live in such a society.

How do honor killings, FGM, and domestic violence NOT relate to VAW?? And there are high rates of all of the above in Muslim countries. Lots of studies about this.

Ravenclaw

Thu, Jun 20 2019, 10:46 pm

amother [ Sapphire ] wrote:

It's easier to say no is not the Yiddishe way. We have pages and pages of Gemorah and Seforim that handle every situation possible, so we do not just say No for easy ways outs. If the Torah would have wanted us to take the easy way out of everything, it would have led by example. But knowing the harm such a path brings, Hashem with his infinite wisdom demonstrated just the opposite. Examine every angle of a situation and try to maximize the benefits to the person and the world.

If we were to take the easy way out, this is how Jewish life would look like:

- every niddah shailoh would be paskened as unclean instead of trying every which way to find a way to make it clean.

- every kashrus question would immediately be declared treif.

- tznius - be safe - wear burkas

I can keep going, but I think you get the idea. We have Dayanim and Rabbonim for a reason. We can have guidelines for this issue just as we have for every single other issue.

And its not just any woman I want to see. I want to see ehrliche frum Yiddishe women. If you feel it's a slippery slope, then censor the issues or don't bring them into your homes. But don't force your opinions (yes, its nothing more than your opinion, it doesn't even touch the border of a chumrah), onto my lifestyle.

So this is already happening. I called a dayan recently to ask a question about kashrus which I was 99% sure was muttar. Anyway, the dayan didn't ask me for any specifics or details and immediately says, "No, no, it's assur."
So just to double-check, I ask, "But isn't it muttar because of xy and z?"
And he says, "Oh, yeah, if xy and z then it's muttar. Ok."
Ummm, thanks?

Ravenclaw

Thu, Jun 20 2019, 11:17 pm

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amother

Rose

Thu, Jun 20 2019, 11:28 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

I just checked this and it's not true. According to the WHO, the countries with the most domestic violence against women are actually located in central and South America and in Africa.

I know, off topic, just wanted to clarify that tiny point -- covering women up does not lead to higher rates of violence against women.

Thanks, I stand corrected. Though I wouldn't want to be treated like a woman in Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan, would you?

marina

Thu, Jun 20 2019, 11:45 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

100% wrong. I can bring proof from seforim but I'm not really interested. It's why women have an issur of [inappropriate] thoughts of men as well, lo sasuru acharei.... it's an araysa.

yes plse bring some cites abt this aveira for women. I’m guessing the magazines don’t know yet that women can’t look at or think abt men.

marina

Fri, Jun 21 2019, 12:30 am

amother [ Lime ] wrote:

The reason why I don't drive has nothing to do with how awesome or special I am. I don't drive because this is the norm in my community. Period.

Do I sometimes wish I did. Actually no. But I can relate to that.

However, I simply view it as part of the full package I get for all the awesome things my community delivers.

So I don't always get what I want. And at times it bothers me. But that's a trade off I'm willing to take for all the other good things it has to offer me.

No need for martyrdom. Thank you very much.

That’s fine, but if you asked the leaders of your community why driving is not allowed, chances are they will tell you how special and awesome women are and how they must be hidden like a rare gem.

amother

Navy

Fri, Jun 21 2019, 12:54 am

I was discussing this thread with my DH, and when I mentioned the "erasing women" comment, he responded "Wait a minute - you mean that concealer, diets etc AREN"T to erase them?" Laugh

Personally I don't understand how you think women are being erased when the articles are about women! Not everything has to be visual, and not all articles include pictures. In these oppressive societies people keep mentioning, articles about women are also taboo.

I AM disturbed when I see photos of women with their faces blurred out. If you don't want to show them, leave the photo out!

Mommyg8

Fri, Jun 21 2019, 1:01 am

marina wrote:

yes plse bring some cites abt this aveira for women. I’m guessing the magazines don’t know yet that women can’t look at or think abt men.

This is the first site that came up when I googled it:

https://guardyoureyes.com/ques.....ility

There's tons more but I'm too tired to go get the seforim to look it up. I know nefesh hachaim speaks about this specifically (sorry, I'm litvish) and I'm sure there are tons of other sources.

ETA: Sorry, I'm tired and was responding to a different post. Rav Moshe Feinstein has a teshuvah on this topic for women. He explains that there are two issurim for men - lo sasuru and zerah levatalah, but only one issur (obviously) for women.

Last edited by Mommyg8 on Fri, Jun 21 2019, 1:14 am; edited 1 time in total

Mommyg8

Fri, Jun 21 2019, 1:05 am

And this is the magic of the internet - all kinds of information that you wouldn't have access to otherwise!

I'm cutting and pasting from the site I just posted above:

" The Mishna Berura (75 s.k. 7) writes that if there is nothing inappropriate around, there is no prohibition for a man to “see” women. He writes that with the exception of those who wish to be extra careful and pious in this area and not even see women at all, it is permissible for a man to see and interact in the presence of women. " He then goes on to explain that this is as long as there is no ervah exposed...

I think that men who wish to be extra careful and pious in this area should not read magazines at all. They should go learn.

soap suds

Fri, Jun 21 2019, 1:10 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

My point is that it's not only about YOUR personal experience. It's about how women are perceived in the community at large. Is it ok if you feel respected but many other women don't?

Like watergirl, I'm not campaigning for women with heavy makeup and long, long shaitels to be printed. I just want to see SOME acknowledgement that women exist. Even the Torah didn't erase women...

The Torah talks about women, doesn't show their picture. So if you claim that the Torah didn't erase women, then by that logic, neither do these magazines.

amother

Navy

Fri, Jun 21 2019, 1:13 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

While I, and many others, would agree with you on this, the editors of the magazines apparently want these men to feel comfortable reading their magazines. Again, it comes down to a business decision. In many ways, if this is the line the magazines are going with, they would be better off leaving out all human photos, but that would just cause a different outcry.

Mommyg8

Fri, Jun 21 2019, 1:17 am

amother [ Navy ] wrote:

I'm sorry, but bittul Torah is a much bigger aveirah than glancing at a woman's picture. Let's stick to what's real.

Mommyg8

Fri, Jun 21 2019, 1:28 am

amother [ Navy ] wrote:

True, but tell that to the editors of the magazines! Very Happy

Also, not every man who is careful about shmiras einayim is learning full time. They are two completely separate issues.

Like I posted, this has nothing to do with shmiras ainayim. I posted what the mishnah berurah says upthread.

And I guess maybe I'm a litvak, but you do know that a man has a chiyuv to learn Torah every minute of the day?

ccwife

Fri, Jun 21 2019, 1:47 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

Didn't read the whole thread but just want to respond to this. My husband learns full time. He also learns in his free time. But he doesn't nap well so on Shabbos after hours of learning in the afternoon (with the day being so long now) he is happy to sit and read a magazine and then maybe learning again after the break. Or maybe he plays a board game with me. Or maybe we go on a walk. Learning is really really hard and too many hours doesn't work for him or the majority of guys.

But he's also happy that he can read a magazine without being concerned with what he'll see. I'm not saying we're against any pictures of women but the security of knowing he can read and not have to worry about shemiras einayim is real.

When asked this question in Yeshiva, his RY basically said while a headshot is technically totally fine once you allow pictures of women the lines become very grey. Who decides on the tznius level of the picture? Knees and collarbones are easy, tightness of a skirt not so much, too much makeup, glamorous shaitel, not so much....

PinkFridge

Fri, Jun 21 2019, 7:49 am

PinkFridge wrote:

The contents of the magazines will be affected.
I'm sorry I'm not elaborating. I need to think this through more, though I have already. I got up too early and I'd like to see the rest of this thread. (FTR I think this is p. 8)

Quoting myself instead of editing a page ago where it might get missed.
Yes, I see Family First is for women. Ok, gezunteheit. I bet they'll never have women on the cover though. I would hope they wouldn't move columns like Moonlight, based on the Torah of Rav Moshe Shapiro zt"l and written by man out of FF.
I don't expect Binah to jump on the bandwagon.
And Hamodia has never had a women's section. I would hope they wouldn't start one just to get pictures in. I like the fact that every section is of interest to both men and women, even if that might not be true of every column.

amother

Lime

Fri, Jun 21 2019, 7:55 am

marina wrote:

That’s fine, but if you asked the leaders of your community why driving is not allowed, chances are they will tell you how special and awesome women are and how they must be hidden like a rare gem.

Sorry to burst your bubble. But the answer would undoubtedly be that "ess past night". Or that it's something that wasn't acceptable for women all the years.

No Rabbi I ever spoke to, would speak that way. It sounds more like an idealistic high school teacher talk. Now that is a different story. I seriously discount all these teacher talk. They simply talk with their own warped view. But a smart Rav or Rabbi, at least the ones I listen too, do not talk this rubbish.

Believe me, I do know the faults in my community. But I get annoyed when people who are not a part of it project their own views of it.