Conspicuous Consumption

PinkFridge

Tue, Jun 25 2019, 7:44 am

I'm glad I'm not in the child-dressing parsha now, though I'm sure if Hashem would put me in that generation, He'd have given me the chops to handle it.

When I was dressing my kids, sure, we wouldn't buy dorky shoes. We'd get some nice school supplies. (2 Lisa Frank folders, but not all 5. Until the school mandated plain folders. That sort of thing.) I remember the first time I bought a dd Stevenson skirts.

But I only bought her 2. So she had 2 cool things. Hopefully an otherwise presentable wardrobe. But it's not like every day every single item had to be perfect. This is what I don't know if I could keep up with.

amother

Mustard

Tue, Jun 25 2019, 9:06 am

I feel this conspicuous consumption issue is tangled with the question: How do you teach your kids to be ok with who they are during the bitter childhood years of jockeying for social position?

Be ok yourself with who you are. Own your values after you figure them out. Live them. Your kids are watching you and will learn from you. Tell your kids they're ok, that they were created unique, with their circumstances, on purpose. That is their contribution to the world.

Whether your kid is naturally self confident or needs to fit in with peers by having the right stuff to feel comfortable, whether you can afford the accoutrements of coolness, etc., remind your kid always that they are awesome and created perfect. It's hard and takes time, but they will find their place and their true friends in life. It doesn't always happen when you're very young.

Think about your true friend. How long did that take? Did it change as you matured? What contact do you have with the cool kids of your childhood? Help your kid see the long haul. Tell them the stories, so they gain perspective ( and you gain perspective). If you are still affected, that is telling as well.

It would help if we could pick a school, neighborhood, family, etc. which fit the child perfectly, but it's not always possible. Your faith that your kid will be ok and thrive will help them learn resilience, whatever their personal tendencies.

... and believe it yourself, about yourself. It is SO much easier to live, make decisions and have peace when you follow your inner compass quietly.

Chayalle

Tue, Jun 25 2019, 9:29 am

PinkFridge wrote:

I'm raising and child-dressing in this generation, and I follow a similar approach. It's okay to have a little, but we don't go overboard with it.

I love DVOM's line about having the confidence to be his own uncool self. We'd have a much healthier world if we could all raise our kids to be that.

Culturedpearls

Tue, Jun 25 2019, 10:11 am

Is this a New York thing?
I have pre teens & teens and adult kids.
My kids are put together, well dressed but
There’s no such pressure for trends etc.
However on my trips into NY I see frum women shopping like crazy, wearing expensive sheitels, jewellery & clothing & I always wonder if they replace their wardrobes every season.
Someone said schools play a part. It’s true. So do cities it seems.

amother

Blue

Tue, Jun 25 2019, 10:19 am

Cultures pearls, yes they replace most things each season...

Culturedpearls

Tue, Jun 25 2019, 10:30 am

amother [ Blue ] wrote:

Cultures pearls, yes they replace most things each season...

So where’s the money coming from?
Besides why throw out perfectly good clothing?

Ruchel

Tue, Jun 25 2019, 10:39 am

I moved to a charedi school
sometimes it annoys me
but then I see the lack of it

amother

Cobalt

Tue, Jun 25 2019, 11:06 am

Fox wrote:

These are all excellent suggestions about handling the problem within our own families, but I understood the OP to be asking about how to address the problem more globally.

It would be very easy to slow down the conspicuous consumption, but it would involve making choices that most of us are unwilling to make.

Just a few ideas:

* Pressure from Rebbes, rabbonim, and roshei yeshiva on wealthy families to tone down consumption. That means being willing to risk losing a juicy donation by saying, "Reb Berel, please don't take your family to Florida for Pesach. You are a leader, and people want to be like you, even unconsciously. If your wife isn't up to making Pesach, we'll help."

* No parlor meetings or women's teas at to-die-for houses.

* Rebbes, rabbonim, and roshei yeshiva refusing to serve as mesader kiddushin at chassunahs that exceed parameters in terms of opulence or size.

* Refusal of magazines to print ads for luxury items, and the backing of Rebbes, rabbonim , and roshei yeshiva in denouncing those publications that do so.

* Refusing to honor individuals at fundraising dinners whose material lifestyle is over the top.

* Mussar at every level about the responsibilities of living in an economically diverse community and the importance of "seemliness" in our consumption.

* Pressure from Rebbes, rabbonim, and roshei yeshiva on grandparents not to insist on simchas and other gatherings that are simply economically unfeasible and increase pressure on everyone.

Now, you're probably saying, "But Fox! That would never work . . . " And you are correct. We rarely merit leaders who are willing to tell us what we need to hear, and when we do, we rarely listen. We have every possible excuse and then some to explain why we should be judged favorably for constantly raising the bar on conspicuous consumption.

Sadly, the people driving this bus are rarely found on Imamother. In fact, I can recall quite a few huffing off, proudly claiming that it's their money and everyone else should just stop being jealous.

So we are unlikely to see any society-wide changes soon, and if history is any indication, we will probably wait until Hashem forces us to change our behavior.

I love you, Fox, but I'd like to respectfully disagree.
If someone is donating a wing to the shul/school/yeshiva and keeping the local Tomche Shabbos going - which is generally the case if they're being honored at dinners and getting the rosh yeshiva as mesader kiddushin - then I "fargin" that person his lavish lifestyle and Pesach hotel wholeheartedly. If Hashem blesses a family with wealth and they give maaser appropriately, I believe they have every right to live better than the rest of us.
The important thing to remember is that those who can afford to live this way are the minority. It is up to US - the majority and middle income families - to restore sanity and enforce normal living standards.
The wealthiest will always do something that is one step above the norm. When e/o follows, insisting that they too deserve a fancy house, expensive vacation, extravagant simchah..., the wealthiest see that as the new normal and move up one level. As we keep imitating their lifestyle recklessly, we perpetuate the cycle. After all, when the majority of simchos were relatively simple, the wealthier simchos were nicer of course, but still reasonably extravagant. As the middle class kept raising the bar, the wealthy did the same, because they'll always want to be one step ahead of the crowd. Years ago, they would have simply been embarrassed to exhibit the extravagance seen today because it would have seemed so ridiculously outlandish when compared to a "normal" family's simchah.
Imho, pointing a finger at the wealthiest in our community is a cop out, a way for the majority to avoid taking responsibility for their chinuch and lifestyle choices. "We the people" are the ones who must bring change.

Chayalle

Tue, Jun 25 2019, 11:19 am

amother [ Cobalt ] wrote:

Very well said.

amother

Tue, Jun 25 2019, 11:19 am

It's not a problem when people live within their means, however lavish that may be. The problems start when people become pressured to live beyond their means, which creates a vicious cycle.

ectomorph

Tue, Jun 25 2019, 11:25 am

The probelm is that the children of the middel class want to live the upper class life. We go to school and shul together. It's hard to feel like the have nots

amother

Ruby

Tue, Jun 25 2019, 11:27 am

I've raised a bunch of girls. My youngest is almost done with high school. I just want to say I hear what OP is saying. My youngest has a much higher pressure to fit in then any of my other daughters did. Society has become very focused on externals, and while it's beautiful to express our hopes to teach our girls confidence in who they are (and yes, of course we must), there is a reality that we can't ignore. I walk a super-fine line all the time between holding onto my moral ground and helping my daughter feel "normal." I make sure she is wearing fashionable shoes, but I only buy Shabbos, school shoes, and sneakers. Anything else is her babysitting money or a birthday present. Clothes are tough - when everybody shops in the frum stores it is really obvious when I try to make do with Marshall's or Amazon. A girl who feels nebby is not feeling good, and a girl who doesn't feel good is vulnerable to all kinds of risky behavior. If she doesn't fit in with the majority she will seek out acceptance somewhere else, and we can no longer control the friends they choose once they hit high school. Please don't belittle OP for expressing this reality.

ectomorph

Tue, Jun 25 2019, 11:32 am

amother [ Ruby ] wrote:

If we can't object because it will hurt people's feelings....

Think of the people struggling to make ends meet who are really hurt by this every day. Where's the pity for the much larger, lower middle class?

glamourmom

Tue, Jun 25 2019, 11:51 am

amother [ Blue ] wrote:

Cultures pearls, yes they replace most things each season...

growing children need most of their things replaced each season.

if a kid feels a need to have xyz to fit in and we say no, how do we help them be confident and feel comfortable regardless??
I keep seeing "build your kid up" "raise confident kids".... that takes work and technique. what is the method?

Aylat

Tue, Jun 25 2019, 12:46 pm

Culturedpearls wrote:

I'm also wondering if this is location specific. We're in a DL yishuv in Israel and I don't see any of this.

Culturedpearls

Tue, Jun 25 2019, 4:04 pm

glamourmom wrote:

Actually I was referring to adults! I was in NY & a store was having a sale & I went in & found a lovely top for my dil. It was pandemonium in there. Women were grabbing things off the racks. Full baskets full of clothing. I was the only one at checkout with just one item.
The prices were ok not incredible but even if they were don’t these women have clothing from last year??
As for kids , I don’t know I’ll buy a coat once every 2 years. I get a slightly bigger size.
My younger daughter will wear her older sisters perfectly good hand me downs.
Hey don’t kids do that anymore?

amother

Saddlebrown

Tue, Jun 25 2019, 4:11 pm

This need for stuff starts from the adults down. They are the ones who lack confidence and over emphasize status.

The very last reason I bought my kids anything is because I wanted them to have a better social position.

amother

Mustard

Tue, Jun 25 2019, 4:14 pm

Culturedpearls wrote:

As for kids , I don’t know I’ll buy a coat once every 2 years. I get a slightly bigger size.
My younger daughter will wear her older sisters perfectly good hand me downs.
Hey don’t kids do that anymore?

This approach, while perfectly reasonable and appropriate in the world, is reason to feel "nebbish" in the NY crowd.

Unfortunately, it is not a joke. I wish I could laugh.
BH I don't live like I live "in town"

PinkFridge

Tue, Jun 25 2019, 4:23 pm

Culturedpearls wrote:

If your kids are going to match then you have to do a lot of extra shopping.
Now they might do super clearance or gemach or hand me downs, but to me it seems like a lot of extra work, besides the possible extra $.

Culturedpearls

Tue, Jun 25 2019, 4:34 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

Why in the world should they match? My teenager does not want her younger sister matching her!! I always think it’s ridiculous when you see like 4 girls aged 12-4 years old all matching. Doesn’t the 12 yo feel ridiculous?
And what about fostering personal tastes & individuality?