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amother




OP


Post  Sun, Jun 30 2019, 10:55 pm
In an earlier locked thread about going OTD, in relation to why (theological) questions are not tolerated in school, one poster said:

"Questions are not tolerated in school (some kind of questions) because most girls don't really think at all (about anything) so why open a Pandora's box when there's no need to? "

I'm trying to understand where this statement is rooted. What type of school is teaching girls who don't really think about anything? Is thinking by girls looked down upon? Is this only in theological contexts or other questions as well? is this a cultural norm in certain communities?

A different poster stated that going OTD at a certain age is a sign of mental illness. If a girl does think (about anything) is that a sign of mental illness?

ETA: I wonder if this is limited to girls, or are questions by boys in certain school/ communities treated the same way?
Is this an issue about "females" or about anyone who has questions about faith.
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Mommyg8




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Jun 30 2019, 11:02 pm
That's my quote. Boys don't think either, so I wasn't trying to be sexist. People today don't really think. It's all about keeping busy with technology and social media or whatever. Our lives are too hectic to think too deeply into anything.
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amother




Mint


Post  Sun, Jun 30 2019, 11:02 pm
I can't say what that poster was getting at, but where I live thinking is very much rewarded. Literally, the students get rewarded for asking good questions in class. It's a style of teaching that challenges the students to challenge what they're learning. The teachers put a lot of effort into finding satisfactory answers to the questions, and the students are also taught that it's ok to leave a question unanswered until a really good answer is found- no need to settle for an answer that really only works halfway.
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amother




Copper


Post  Sun, Jun 30 2019, 11:04 pm
I went to bais kaila HS in lkwd. (Hi yall Wave )
And we loveddd to tell the teachers that they dont let us ask questions. Well truth is, we were able to ask wtvr we wanted to. It's just typical HS jargon "we cant ask any questions blah blah " kinda a way to get class off subject even if we didnt have questions. Girls with lots of questions usually arent looking for answers or they just want to start up and they will never be satisfied. If you had a real question on faith and you were actually in search of an answer, there were many hanhala members who were qualified to provide one.
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amother




Seafoam


Post  Sun, Jun 30 2019, 11:06 pm
The poster who said "most girls don't think at all about anyhing" is probably a male infiltrator on imamother, who thinks all the time, but with the head that is covered by his pants.
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amother




OP


Post  Sun, Jun 30 2019, 11:08 pm
Mommy8, do you believe that people's behavior in relation to their frumkeit is done without thinking? Why then would a non thinking person leave orthodoxy? Does the need to think arrive later in life, after one is married and has kids?

We are living in very dangerous times. I hope there are at least a handful of people in each community who are inquisitive, seek answers and stay in their faith while looking for answers. How many people in my shul are actually believers?

I personally have had a different experience. I have found there are thinking people in this world, of all ages, even those that use smartphones.
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Mommyg8




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Jun 30 2019, 11:11 pm
amother [ Seafoam ] wrote:
The poster who said "most girls don't think at all about anyhing" is probably a male infiltrator on imamother, who thinks all the time, but with the head that is covered by his pants.


Yup, I was that poster. I guess I'm male, gotta tell my husband Wink .

I wrote above that I meant both girls and boys. And what I meant by thinking is that my experience is that most people dont ask deep, philosophical questions. Or are not really interested in the answers.
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amother




Fuchsia


Post  Sun, Jun 30 2019, 11:13 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
In an earlier locked thread about going OTD, in relation to why (theological) questions are not tolerated in school, one poster said:

"Questions are not tolerated in school (some kind of questions) because most girls don't really think at all (about anything) so why open a Pandora's box when there's no need to? "

I went to a mainstream Bais Yaakov. We had hashkafa classes where we could ask any questions.
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Mommyg8




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Jun 30 2019, 11:23 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Mommy8, do you believe that people's behavior in relation to their frumkeit is done without thinking? Why then would a non thinking person leave orthodoxy? Does the need to think arrive later in life, after one is married and has kids?

We are living in very dangerous times. I hope there are at least a handful of people in each community who are inquisitive, seek answers and stay in their faith while looking for answers.

I personally have had a different experience. I have found there are thinking people in this world, of all ages, even those that use smartphones.


There are a lot of questions in your post, and I will try to answer them (or as much as I know).

I don't know the statistics on why people leave Orthodoxy. Boruch Hashem, I don't know too many people like that. The very few I do know left for emotional reasons. Which is not to say that everyone leaves for emotional reasons, that is NOT what I am saying.

So in order to answer your question I would need a LOT more information.

Second question - I don't know why anyone leaves Orthodoxy, but from what I'm reading on ima it is implied that many leave for intellectual reasons. I have no idea what those reasons were, where they searched for answers, and if it is even true. So I can't answer this question either.

Third question - I don't know if the need to think arrives later, but certainly adults encounter things that they were sheltered from as children, which makes them wonder about what else they were told in school. They may encounter someone in a position of authority who is abusive or hurtful - and wonder why this should be allowed. They may go through a personal crisis, they may feel a Rav didn't understand/listen to them - these are all valid questions that there is no real medium to get answers for adults.

I agree that the internet has created a dangerous reality.

There are all kinds of people - everyone does think, but the question is what do they think about? A lot depends on your culture and what the expectations for your community are. I find that many people are really focused on externals, but there are a lot who are not. There are really all kinds of people.
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Mommyg8




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Jun 30 2019, 11:24 pm
And amother lavendar from the other thread, I was really intrigued by what you wrote. I wish you would pm me.
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amother




Cobalt


Post  Sun, Jun 30 2019, 11:41 pm
amother [ Copper ] wrote:
I went to bais kaila HS in lkwd. (Hi yall Wave )
And we loveddd to tell the teachers that they dont let us ask questions. Well truth is, we were able to ask wtvr we wanted to. It's just typical HS jargon "we cant ask any questions blah blah " kinda a way to get class off subject even if we didnt have questions. Girls with lots of questions usually arent looking for answers or they just want to start up and they will never be satisfied. If you had a real question on faith and you were actually in search of an answer, there were many hanhala members who were qualified to provide one.


I don’t know when you went to Bais Kaila, but that was not my experience when I was there 20 years ago. Girls with questions were quickly shut up and made to feel very wrong for questioning anything.
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amother




Purple


Post  Sun, Jun 30 2019, 11:46 pm
amother [ Seafoam ] wrote:
The poster who said "most girls don't think at all about anyhing" is probably a male infiltrator on imamother, who thinks all the time, but with the head that is covered by his pants.


I take offense at this for Mommyg8's sake, and I will report it.


Last edited by amother on Thu, Jul 04 2019, 6:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
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amother




Chartreuse


Post  Sun, Jun 30 2019, 11:55 pm
My HS daughters are encouraged to ask and one of them really does. I am so impressed by both how much she really cares and wants to know, learn and understand, and how supportive and encouraging her teachers are. She has had the privilege to sit down with teachers and have both abstract and source based conversations. She really thinks about things and is mindful, wanting to do the right thing and understand why it is correct-where it says that she needs to do or not do something. Furthermore, she is not the anomaly.

Not that there are no OTD children in her school or people in the community at large- it would be naive to think so.

I wonder if the differences found vary from school to school or if it is more by community/sect?
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amother




Purple


Post  Sun, Jun 30 2019, 11:57 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Mommy8, do you believe that people's behavior in relation to their frumkeit is done without thinking? Why then would a non thinking person leave orthodoxy? Does the need to think arrive later in life, after one is married and has kids?

We are living in very dangerous times. I hope there are at least a handful of people in each community who are inquisitive, seek answers and stay in their faith while looking for answers. How many people in my shul are actually believers?

I personally have had a different experience. I have found there are thinking people in this world, of all ages, even those that use smartphones.


Well, it does say in the pasuk מצות אנשים מלומדה... yes, most people follow Judaism by rote without really delving into it.

I believe that there are different types of people who need different levels of intellectual satisfaction in order to achieve a high level of relationship with Hashem. Some people are much more emotional by nature and need to "feel" Yiddishkeit. Some are more temimusdik by nature (not just by nurture) and truly have no need to be exposed to such questions. Others need to understand what they are doing and why they are doing it. Just for the record, as long as someone's relationship with Hashem is authentic, there is nothing wrong with not needing answers to questions.

When the Rambam came out with the Moreh Nevuchim, he was met with such fierce opposition from the chachamim. They didn't want him introducing ideas to people if they weren't asking the questions. However, the Rabbeinu Yonah wrote the Sha'arei Teshuva as part of his personal teshuva for his criticism of the Rambam. That tells you that for all his disagreement, there was a need for the Moreh Nevuchim. It's not for everyone, but there are those who can benefit from it.

Personally, I never struggled with the existential questions of "How do we know that the Torah is true?" and "If Hashem knows what I'm going to do before I do it, how do I have bechira?" Some of my classmates couldn't see past it. That's fine--they're entitled to answers. I had no reason to delve into it, other than דע מה שתשיב לאפיקורס. Unfortunately, with exposure to apikorsim in my life, I have more of a need for clear answers -- not for their benefit, since they'll never believe, but to maintain my own clarity.

Though I didn't struggle with those questions, I have plenty of my own -- and they're harder to answer. It's a struggle. Sometimes I find more meaning, and other times I don't. Most of my struggles are based on emotional pain leading to cognitive dissonance.

For my intellectual understanding of Yiddishkeit, I like to read R' Hirsch's ma'amarim, as well as parts of the Michtav M'Eliyahu. That's when I'm thinking more rationally and not in an emotionally charged state.


Last edited by amother on Thu, Jul 04 2019, 6:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
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LovesHashem




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Jul 01 2019, 2:55 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
In an earlier locked thread about going OTD, in relation to why (theological) questions are not tolerated in school, one poster said:

"Questions are not tolerated in school (some kind of questions) because most girls don't really think at all (about anything) so why open a Pandora's box when there's no need to? "

I'm trying to understand where this statement is rooted. What type of school is teaching girls who don't really think about anything? Is thinking by girls looked down upon? Is this only in theological contexts or other questions as well? is this a cultural norm in certain communities?

A different poster stated that going OTD at a certain age is a sign of mental illness. If a girl does think (about anything) is that a sign of mental illness?

ETA: I wonder if this is limited to girls, or are questions by boys in certain school/ communities treated the same way?
Is this an issue about "females" or about anyone who has questions about faith.


I think the bolded is more prevalent in girls schools; but it is still common in boys schools as well.

I think it's very unfortunate; in the mainstream BY system in Israel I find most girls school do not want to open up anything. You have school screaming at us all that the internet is evil and we all need to dress mechubad - but half of the class was had been on the internet for years, a third was watching dirty movies and no one could ever explain WHY we had to dress mechubad...we just...had to.

Why is the internet evil?
Why are non-jewish books bad?
Why shouldn't I get a smartphone?
Who said the christians aren't correct?
Or the muslims?

No one could talk about these things. Text - wise, like in tanach and in studies questions in my school personally were encouraged. But I do know many schools frown on these as well. We studied the Dovid Hamelech and Batsheva story in depth as well as Adam and Chava. We also learned in history class about the old shtetl and the pull of secularism. We had an amazing history teacher that spoke about what was going on in the people's heads and what it was like to live then rather than just a bunch of old names to memorize.

But from what I understand again; my school was unique in this aspect.
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LovesHashem




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Jul 01 2019, 2:59 am
We did also learn Machshevet Yisroel in depth and were encouraged to ask deep questions on these thoughtful type books like: Chovot Halevavot. (Duties of the Heart) but modern day questions about what was going on now were very much scorned.

As a whole that was the school vibe and rule. I went to a awesome school though and I would say at least 3/4 members knew what was going on behind the scenes with girls and would have private and public conversations about our modern day questions. But as a school reflection, the principal and all the school wide lectures - these type of questions were unacceptable.
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Jul 01 2019, 3:24 am
Mommyg8 wrote:
That's my quote. Boys don't think either, so I wasn't trying to be sexist. People today don't really think. It's all about keeping busy with technology and social media or whatever. Our lives are too hectic to think too deeply into anything.
I find your train of thinking to be extremely sad. I know many great thinkers and people who put a lot of effort into questioning things, which I think is very important.
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Jul 01 2019, 3:28 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
In an earlier locked thread about going OTD, in relation to why (theological) questions are not tolerated in school, one poster said:

"Questions are not tolerated in school (some kind of questions) because most girls don't really think at all (about anything) so why open a Pandora's box when there's no need to? "

I'm trying to understand where this statement is rooted. What type of school is teaching girls who don't really think about anything? Is thinking by girls looked down upon? Is this only in theological contexts or other questions as well? is this a cultural norm in certain communities?

A different poster stated that going OTD at a certain age is a sign of mental illness. If a girl does think (about anything) is that a sign of mental illness?

ETA: I wonder if this is limited to girls, or are questions by boys in certain school/ communities treated the same way?
Is this an issue about "females" or about anyone who has questions about faith.
First off, I think questions are not tolerated in some communities. But in many other communities, questions are looked at in a very positive light. If I hadnt asked many questions in my teenage years, I would, without a shadow of a doubt, not be religious today.

And about going off the derech being a sign of mental illness, Im sorry, but whomever said that is extremely ignorant. Thats not how it works.
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ectomorph




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Jul 01 2019, 3:58 am
It's a dumb comment. Girls in litvish bys learn lots of in depth commentaries. I also used to learn with my father random mefirshim on davening.
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amother




Sapphire


Post  Mon, Jul 01 2019, 4:54 am
To someone who doesn't have questions, it's not always a good idea to start giving them questions. I read a book (non jewish thriller) where it talked about the torah as a theoretical concept written by thetamoses. I was a teenager (I read plenty of books I'd never let my kids near) but this book was the first time such a concept was suggested to me and I then had to find an answer for a question I'd never really had.
To me it seems that both girls and boys should be allowed access to answers about the tenets of our faith, but if you have emotional emunah without needing to delve too deeply, then I would say let it be-give some basic emunah answers but I don't see that it's always helpful to start giving doubts they never had before.
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