Where a Yeshivish family should move from Israel to USA?

giselle

Wed, Jul 17 2019, 12:06 am

amother [ Forestgreen ] wrote:

By your parenthetical comment, were you saying that Lakewood is OOT-like? Because if it is, you have seriously no clue about communities in the USA. Lakewood is IN TOWN. It has every possible Jewish food, furniture, clothing, nosh etc. store and it's a complete rat race. Your daughter won't be caught dead wearing last year's headband style, so you fork over $18 for 1 (one) new one that has this year's exact design.

I feel like people are kind of beating around the bush. The boys' schools are atrocious. They hardly learn secular studies altogether, they are wild animals, the schools have their policies that may benefit the group, but def don't care about the individual. You must fit in exactly or you are "weird" or better, not "normal." Girls' schools don't exactly celebrate diversity and creativity either. Lakewood basically doesn't tick off ANY item on your checklist.
Possibly Baltimore. Passaic is pretty yuppie, not really the growing in torah type as a community as a whole, although I'm sure as Passaicers as individuals are perfectly lovely.

Sounds like Lakewood might not be the best place for you, forestgreen. I’ll reserve my other comments for a spin-off. Not that I’m starting one.

salt

Wed, Jul 17 2019, 1:34 am

There are fairly new schools in Jerusalem that are 'chareidi' but teach high level of limudei chol, and bagrut for the high schools.
In Neven Yaakov there is Beit Rabban (I think it's called that), and there are yeshivot like Yishuv, Nehorah, Maarava, which are completely chareidi but they do bagrut (and I'm pretty sure they play soccer).
I know what you mean by others look down on your gashmiyus - I don't think it's looking down, it's more like "wow look what these guys have got!" - my kids' friends sometimes come to play and their eyes open wide at the amount of children's books/toys we have! Some kids come and borrow books (they think we're a library Very Happy

)
I got used to it -- ok, so we're the 'rich chutznikim', I know people call us that. But I also know other 'not rich' Israeli charedi families whose kids look much more dressed up than mine, new school bags every year, etc, I have know idea where they get them from!!
OK, I'm rambling. Bekitzur - I recommend you stay in Israel, and find different schools, possibly different place to live.
A move to the US is a HUGE and almost irreversible drop in ruchniyut. Absolutely no comparison!!
I've seen on imamother before, advice given to families moving from Israel to America, like - "make sure your kids know how to place soccer and baseball otherwise they'll never fit it". Sounds like that's the ikkar there. Here it's tafel, and if your kids are not getting enough you can add it to their schedule.
I sent my kids to gym chugim after school. There's karate, soccer, swimming, and other stuff like electronics, carpentry, etc, all kinds of chugim for enrichment. Just have to look around.

salt

Wed, Jul 17 2019, 2:31 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Besides some parts of Yerushalayim and RBS there's not many choices for people who want to live with a significant percentage of Anglos. So we don't have "hundreds of schools" to choose from. Also, the problem with sending to schools with "bagruyot" is that they are considered totally non-mainstream and come along with other issues. That's why I said at the outset, that living like total Americans in Israel is not for us and not what our mentors recommend is wise.

We do private tutoring in English and Math, but it's not nearly the same as even the most RW yeshivish schools in America and as the kids get older it becomes even harder to find the time and the will (for the boys). This is what we've seen and heard, so happy to be corrected.

You're right, those Yeshvios (that I mentioned in my post above) are not mainstream.
But, first of all, they are becoming more accepted. And secondly, you say you don't fit into mainstream Israeli chareidi either (or more that you don't like, not that you don't fit).

I have 2 DS's in very mainstream yeshivot gedolot in Jerusalem, and they learn with boys who went to these Yeshivos that do bagrut. They join a year later, as they did 4 years in yeshiva ketana instead of 3, and fully integrate into the same black yeshivos.

Additionally, many charedi young men are going to michlalot after a few years of marriage and getting bagrut, degrees, professions. That is also becoming more accepted now, and by the time your kids are getting married, even more so.
Why waste your time studying math for 12 years, when you can do it in half a year when you're 25? My poor DDs suffer so much from the math homework they have to do each day. And you know what, my 20 yr old yeshiva bocher, that stopped learning math at 8th grade, looked at my 17 yr old's homework, and he solved 3 out of the 5 questions!!

What you're saying about continuing private tutoring is true. Once the boys get to yeshiva ketana and come home at 9pm, they won't have time for private lessons. But if they get a good basis in reading till then, and I assume they speak English, that's a better start than most have.

amother

Tan

Wed, Jul 17 2019, 5:29 am

salt wrote:

Why waste your time studying math for 12 years, when you can do it in half a year when you're 25?

I wish you were right. Machon Lev has a remedial program for boys from charedi yeshivos. In the first year, they get them to 8th grade (!!!) and in the second year they cover high school math. There's a 50 percent failure rate. Math is intuitive for some people, but not as many as you think.

And if it's so worthless, why are your daughters doing it?

salt

Wed, Jul 17 2019, 5:48 am

amother [ Tan ] wrote:

I wish you were right. Machon Lev has a remedial program for boys from charedi yeshivish. In the first year, they get them to 8th grade (!!!) and in the second year they cover high school math. There's a 50 percent failure rate. Math is intuitive for some people, but not as many as you think.

And if it's so worthless, why are your daughters doing it?

OK so only the bright guys can make up the math. I agree with you. But the one's for whom math is not intuitive would probably suffer from it through high-school (whether in Israel or in the US), and go on to study and work in something not science/math related.

My girls do it becuase it's in their school curriculum. I don't mean it's worthless, I just think more hype is made over it than necessary.

Anyway, all has gone slightly off topic.

Back on topic, just out of interest, are there litvish yeshivish communities in America where the norm for adults is not to have a smart-phone? I'm sincerely asking. I did not grow up in America. I have relatives in Boro Park/Flatbush, and they all have smartphones.

DrMom

Wed, Jul 17 2019, 5:53 am

amother [ Tan ] wrote:

This seems like a ridiculous pace. Nothing has time to sink in. How does anyone really retain anything? I'm surprised the failure rate is only 50%.

salt

Wed, Jul 17 2019, 6:08 am

DrMom wrote:

This seems like a ridiculous pace. Nothing has time to sink in. How does anyone really retain anything? I'm surprised the failure rate is only 50%.

Nothing has to sink in. You just have to pass the exams.
I studied math to a very high level in the UK, and currently work in a science related field, and I have never had to use any of the math that I studied (trig, algebra, geometry etc) in my 'real' life. It was all just a stepping stone to the next degree of studies. So if you can do that quickly, why not.

Oh I take it back, there one thing I use my knowledge of high school math for - that's to help my high-school girls with their homework.

LOL

To be honest, I would summarize it as such - the bright kids can catch up later in life in machon-lev type place. The not bright kids, wouldn't do math anyway.
Learning math from 1st grade slowly and gradually, as they do in non-yeshivish high schools, is good for the middle kids, admittedly there are many of them. So I would have to admit, there probably is some value in studying math all the way up, but once you do that, and you have to pass the exams, and study and get good grades, then your limudei kodesh takes a back seat. Not everything can be top priority.

Anyway, I don't think it's a reason to make Yerida. That's my bottom line.
(Please don't hug.
Just comment if you don't like)

amother

Aqua

Wed, Jul 17 2019, 6:16 am

salt wrote:

Yep. I also work in a science and math field. I use barely any math. My husband taught himself math

aquad

Wed, Jul 17 2019, 7:07 am

salt wrote:

s.

Additionally, many charedi young men are going to michlalot after a few years of marriage and getting bagrut, degrees, professions. That is also becoming more accepted now, and by the time your kids are getting married, even more so.
Why waste your time studying math for 12 years, when you can do it in half a year when you're 25? My poor DDs suffer so much from the math homework they have to do each day. And you know what, my 20 yr old yeshiva bocher, that stopped learning math at 8th grade, looked at my 17 yr old's homework, and he solved 3 out of the 5 questions!!

How many nekudot is your daughter taking in math? While I have no doubt that your 20 year old son is very smart, I'm always skeptical of stories like these. By 11th grade, your daughter's math should include symbols he never covered (square roots, absolute value, functions, possibly sine/cosine, etc). Math can be easy to grasp if you are really smart, but you still need to know how to read the equations.

As said earlier, Machon Lev's drop out rate is 50%. Some people are comfortable wagering their sons's financial futures on a coin flip. Each to his own.

amother

Firebrick

Wed, Jul 17 2019, 7:16 am

I have kids in Israeli high schools.

Math is a very basic requirement these days to get into many university departments. 4 or 5 point bagrut.

Computers is a very hot field now, and they study A LOT of math.

A bright kid can get into computer science at a good university if s/he really applied themselves in high school.

Somebody who didnt study math at all in high school? Has to be super super smart (not just bright) AND spend a year or two in mechina to have a chance of getting in.

The fact boys dont study math in high school automatically stops a lot of them from ever entering the ריאלי subjects here, like computers, engineering etc.

Chayalle

Wed, Jul 17 2019, 9:20 am

amother [ Forestgreen ] wrote:

I feel like I'm having an identity crisis reading this, because I live in Lakewood, and while I agree that it is IN TOWN, there are lots of people, like myself, who are not part of any rat race.

Headbands, for real? (My DD hates headbands and wears no hair accessories at all. Braids, sometimes, if Mommy has time or her big sisters do it for her.) More like last year's sales clothes, shoes from sales, etc...and she is just fine socially, and has no issues with it.

I'm sorry you feel so much pressure Forestgreen. I actually find my DD's school to be very accommodating of her individuality.

amother

Wed, Jul 17 2019, 9:26 am

salt wrote:

Back on topic, just out of interest, are there litvish yeshivish communities in America where the norm for adults is not to have a smart-phone? I'm sincerely asking. I did not grow up in America. I have relatives in Boro Park/Flatbush, and they all have smartphones.

We also want to know this. In addition, if such communities do exist, are there any which don't shun boys who choose to not go into full time learning (due to lack of money or capabilities)? From what we've seen & heard, they seem to go together.

They may seem like 2 totally different topics, but I think it may be illustrative of the problem we are having. If we go far RW to get the hakpada on technology, tznius, halacha, dass torah, and approach to the outside world, we also have to take along the close-mindedness in other areas like "do-or die" long-term learning and lack of secular education. So where is the utopia which balances it all perfectly Smile

? Or, where is the closest 2nd...?

amother

Silver

Wed, Jul 17 2019, 9:59 am

Re smart phones, it is now a thing to have a heavily filtered smart phone, almost like having white-listed internet. There are frum companies, both businesses and TAG, that will set you up so your phone has talk, text and maybe Waze and Uber or possibly email, but no browser and no other apps, with no ability to download anything else.

This is because dumb phones are hard to get, because we've all been getting old ones but now the network they run on is being fazed out. Also, people really want Waze, and sometimes email for business. So a smartphone in someone's hand may not be what you expect it to be.

amother

Red

Wed, Jul 17 2019, 9:59 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

? Or, where is the closest 2nd...?

I think you are looking for a closed approach to the outside world, with secular education, and the physical comforts that working in the outside world offers a family?

Its a confusing tall order.

amother

Tan

Wed, Jul 17 2019, 10:07 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

? Or, where is the closest 2nd...?

If your approach to the outside world is that it's all bad and we need to shelter ourselves from it, then secular education will naturally not be a value. At best, it's tolerated for its utility.
Sorry, that's the package you bought.

amother

Wed, Jul 17 2019, 10:08 am

amother [ Red ] wrote:

I think you are looking for a closed approach to the outside world, with secular education, and the physical comforts that working in the outside world offers a family?

Its a confusing tall order.

By "outside world" I meant - culture, trends, movies, following sports, etc... not working in the outside world.

So looking for none of that, but a basic secular education where a boy can support his family if/when the time comes.